Sorry, Joerg, fell asleep again before I reached the Mudcat last night. I'd agree with Bob on both counts - he's put it exactly as I've always understood those two terms. The singer's pronunciation is rather awkward in places, and my tape is bad, but I clearly understand 'iron men', and I think they're both the men who work iron and who are hard themselves. Or do you think that is overdoing it, Bob? - Cheers, Susanne