The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #131699   Message #2974229
Posted By: mousethief
27-Aug-10 - 05:14 PM
Thread Name: BS: The God Delusion 2010
Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
Silly, silly, mousethief. You picked this bit from me to include in your polemic, but unfortunately you completely misread the meaning it's meant to convey,

If the message fails to come across, blame the recipient. Nice. I'll remember that general principle.

At the heart of every Christian is the stinking evil that they believe they are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell.

Incorrect. There are Christian universalists.

Atheism is by definition a belief system

Can't agree. Atheism is by definition lack of belief in God. You might as well say not-stamp-collecting is a hobby.

Atheism is about Reality and Inclusivity; it is about the celebration of the commonality of each and every one of us in that not one of us is any greater than any other.

That sounds an awful lot like a belief system. Better to say that atheism means lack of belief in God.

Buddhism is a second to none religion.

Is Buddhism a religion? I've heard Buddhists argue both ways.

Why do superstitious people get all precious over their delusion?

See, this kind of rhetoric just doesn't move the conversation forward. By the way, something is a delusion only if it's false. By saying it's a delusion you're saying you KNOW God doesn't exist. How would you know that?

Is it because deep down they realise the imaginary friend bit is in fact just a metaphor for the whole mindset? or is it because again deep down, they either knowingly or otherwise resent being told how to behave by people in charge of their faith?

This is just Bulverism.

It is all the other stuff attached to Christianity that I find too bitter a pill to swallow.

This is a respectful statement that one could have a discussion over, because Virginia isn't starting out by insulting Christianity or saying she knows it's false.

well here is what the Supreme Court ruled it as a religion

The Supreme Court also overturned the Florida Supreme Court in order to make George Bush president. I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time.

But isn't it time to stop being polite to people who insist on damaging their children's education?

Why, what would being rude do? Would it help them to see the error of their ways and do something else? Like hell. It will only make them feel justified in their doings by the "persecution", and make the snarky ones feel glibly self-righteous.

Why do you believe that?

JohnP: that is a decent approach to go about. But before you can ask for evidence we need to back up one step (at least) and talk about what counts as evidence. Otherwise we may be using the word in two different ways, and talking right past each other. I usually don't give reasons for what I believe online, because I have found that when I do, people pounce on them as if I were presenting a hypothesis in a scientific or logical debate. I don't expect anybody to go along with my beliefs, and greatly appreciate being treated in the same way. What I try to point out are inconsistencies and insufficient attention to the underlying principles of someone's statements.

And the problem with the whole "evidence" thing is that evidence for belief in God isn't scientific evidence. There is no experiment (yet?) one can do and say, "See? God exists." Most people's belief in God (those who have thought about it philosophically) probably rests on a combination of personal experience, historical evidence, and trust in the reports of persons they find trustworthy. None of that is scientific in nature. The existence of God is NOT a scientific question, and treating it as such is a category error.

See, when you say:

I'm also not talking about spiritual experience, which is a well-documented phenomenon and is available to anyone.

you're pre-defining the constraints of the discussion. It's like me saying, "Explain to me why you think light is both a particle or a wave. But no dragging in scientific experiments." Horses for courses. Belief in God and belief in the findings of science just aren't the same kind of thing.

Faith means you believe without having evidence.

See, this is just wrong-headed. It have faith my wife will not have an affair. I don't know she won't, but I believe it. It is not without any evidence, but it is certainly without scientific evidence. So with people's faith in God. They don't have scientific evidence (as I said that is impossible) but that doesn't mean they don't have any evidence at all. Maybe not evidence that you will accept, which is fair enough but not the same thing.

I was responding directly to mousethief's assertion that I can't know what the evidence is that supports a belief in a higher being.

I don't think I said that, and if I did I was mistaken and I apologize.

Also defending my position that I've never been given any reason to think that gods exist, a position which has drawn some fire.

Not from me. If you have no reason to think X, then there is certainly no call to expect you to think X.

People take the word of scientists because they know that there is evidence to back up the stuff that scientists say.

Which they know because the scientists tell them so. Few of us are in the position to replicate the experiments that led to the majority of scientific beliefs. Hell, few of us would even understand them. Truly, most people's understanding and faith in science is based on trust in authority.

Recently bought a pair of bones.... cannot get to grips (hahaha) with them. I have no rhythm.

Bones are impossible. Don't feel bad. I think there must be a bone-playing gene that I failed to inherit.