Yeah, but there's a difference between evidence and proof. The word evidence has a rather broad spectrum of meaning. I'd say that in general, evidence is information or something observable or palpable that leads one to assume, believe, conclude, or prove something.
But proof is a logical and incontrovertible conclusion based on a body of evidence.

I acknowledge that there are many believers who want to "prove" the correctness of what they believe, but I see very few Mudcatters who seek to prove their beliefs. They see their beliefs as more....intuitive. They acknowledge some element of doubt and uncertainty in what they believe - but they believe nonetheless, and wish only to be free to believe unmolested. Here and there we get a religious nut at Mudcat who wants to condemn people for their unbelief, that that's rarely the case here.

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I don't think I have ever seen a post here that shows disrespect to Native American beliefs, legends, stories, rituals, and traditions. People seem to be able to grasp that although these elements of Native American belief may not be "factually" true, they can often lead to profound truth and insight. Well, I think that the same can hold true for the beliefs, legends, stories, rituals, and traditions of a wide variety of other belief systems, from Christianity to Zen. By keeping an open mind, I have learned wonderful things from a wide variety of religious and philosophical traditions, not only from my own tradition. These traditions may not always be rational or logical or "factual," but they can be good and true if they open people to a deeper understanding and respect for that which surrounds us. If they lead people to closed minds and intolerance and exclusionism, then I think they can be harmful or dangerous.

And despite all the good and sacredness in the elements Native American beliefs, there are other Native American belief elements that can lead people to closed minds and intolerance and exclusionism; and yes, even to violence.

So, what I ask for is tolerance and respect for all that can lead people to openness and generosity and wisdom - even to people who do not share your particular ideology. And yes, even legend and myth can lead people to openness and generosity and wisdom.


Stringsinger, you said something that I don't completely understand:

I also see that Mudcat is not always respectful of secular views
and sometimes people impose their religious views on others here
and you don't object to that.
This is a double standard.

I wonder if you could explain that more, because I don't completely understand what you're saying. Mudcat has a policy of generally allowing people to say what they say, as long as it isn't a direct and personal attack on another Mudcatter. We expect people to express their secular views and their religious views without restriction, and I think we're pretty good at adhering to that free-speech policy.

Now, as far as my personal views, I admit that I myself may have a double standard. I expect nonbelievers to be rational and tolerant and respectful, because they usually are. And yes, when they are disrespectful or when they paint a condemnation with too broad a brush, I object.
On the other hand, I do NOT expect religious fanatics to be rational or tolerant or respectful, because they usually aren't. I usually don't object to what they say, because I do not believe they are capable of rational discussion. I just keep quiet and hope they go away, and I've found they're more likely to leave if people don't respond to them. But yet, as a moderator I feel bound to allow what they say because we have a free-speech policy.
In general, I respect nonbelievers, but I do not respect religious fanatics. I have profound respect for you and for most of the values you say you hold dear, and I espouse almost all the same values you claim as your own. But I am a religious person, and you are not - so if you condemn my beliefs when I think we share mostly the same values, it hurts. I ask only that you respect my beliefs as sacred to me, even though you do not hold those beliefs. That, I believe, is tolerance - if we respect a person, then we must also respect (but not necessarily espouse) what that person holds sacred.

-Joe-