The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #131699   Message #2979768
Posted By: Steve Shaw
04-Sep-10 - 06:06 AM
Thread Name: BS: The God Delusion 2010
Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
"If a Freethinker gives intense thought to the idea, and concludes a god does exist, does she thereby cease to be a freethinker?"

Yes she does. You are demonstrating, perhaps unintentionally, in this remark the inbuilt certainty that blights religion. Anyone who comes to a conclusion of such certainty, either way, without sufficient evidence (and there can never be sufficient evidence for certainty) is not a freethinker. You may conclude that there is some possibility that a God exists and still be a freethinker. But if you conclude that there is a strong possibility that God exists (let's say, more likely than not) you are in danger of losing the badge as you are reaching conclusions that fly in the face of all rational evidence. The other issue for aspiring freethinkers is to ensure that certain baggage is ditched, such as fear of heavenly reprisal or fear of social disadvantage here on the ground. Not easy, and organised religion makes very sure that it isn't easy.



"Your insistence that few people are agnostic for intellectually honest reasons almost smacks of religious dogma. Why is it so important to you that Agnostics call themselves Atheists?"

I'm not insisting on it at all. I'm speaking as I find. Next time you meet an alleged agnostic ask them why they're agnostic. You may get lucky and get a good debate going, but you're far more likely to hear that "it's all a load of rubbish as far as I'm concerned," or "I can't be bothered with all that hocus-pocus and dressing-up" or you might get a remark about priests and child abuse. Largely, you'll hear a lot of veiled excuses for the fact they've stopped going to church. I don't want or not want it this way. It's the way it is. And actually, as I've said several times on this thread, I don't want anyone to call themselves atheists, not even atheists. It's outrageous that we're defined by religion when religion has nothing to do with the way we live. And it's a negative word in any case. My view that so-called atheism is largely misinterpreted to be an absolutist stance - it is anything but - is meant more as an invitation to agnostics to think again.