The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #131699   Message #2980135
Posted By: mousethief
04-Sep-10 - 08:14 PM
Thread Name: BS: The God Delusion 2010
Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010
does religious belief by definition normally demand no doubts whatsoever?

Oh, I hope not. There are some church environments where it feels like that is the case. People who escape from those environments usually say that they felt like they had to pretend they had no doubts (and often no problems) and it just got too much for them. But there are a lot of churches where that is not the case.

Perhaps, as a believer, potential adjunct professor of philosophy and expert on epistemology, you could enlighten us as to the various meanings and objects of prayer.

That would rather require a prayerologist than an epistemologist. I have not made a study of the various meanings and objects of prayer. I can say what I have picked up along the way from talking with people, which is that it runs the gamut from people thinking that God helped them find a parking spot, to people thinking that the purpose is to change ourselves, not God (sometimes by "realigning" our thoughts to be like God's, whatever exactly that means), to people who don't know if it has any effect at all, but do it because we are commanded to in scripture. In at least one place, St Paul seems to indicate that the purpose of prayer is to engender inner peace in the person praying: "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, and with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. And the peace of God which passes all comprehension will guide your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:6-7)

Yes she does. You are demonstrating, perhaps unintentionally, in this remark the inbuilt certainty that blights religion. Anyone who comes to a conclusion of such certainty, either way, without sufficient evidence (and there can never be sufficient evidence for certainty) is not a freethinker.

Did I say certainty? If so I apologize. So what you're saying, then, is that if somebody concludes God doesn't exist, they're not "certain" but if somebody concludes God does exist, they are? Stringsinger said:

It means to me that the question of the existence of a god has been thought through and conclusions that are reached are that there is no god.

Bit of a double standard if you ask me. Maybe you and he disagree on that.

But if you conclude that there is a strong possibility that God exists (let's say, more likely than not) you are in danger of losing the badge as you are reaching conclusions that fly in the face of all rational evidence.

Such certainty. Tsk.

It's outrageous that we're defined by religion when religion has nothing to do with the way we live.

I'd say religion has a hell of a lot to do with the way Dawkins lives. Indeed I imagine he lives pretty high on the hog with the money he's made due to religion.

I think I may need to repeat (more clearly) that the concept of "prayer" in christianity, as allegedly prescribed in the Gospels by the Christian Gods alleged incarnation on earth (Jesus) does not involve 'asking' for anything.

That's a little disingenuous. Immediately after the quote you quoted Jesus goes on to say "pray in this way" and then recite what has come to be known as the Lord's Prayer or Our Father. Which includes the lines "give us this day our daily bread."

I was wondering, do Christians on this forum believe everything written in the New Testament "chapter and verse" or do they "pick and choose" ?

Are those my only two choices?

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Hmm. Right. So if you *don't* go into your room, etc., do I take it that the Father will withold rewards?


That's the logical fallacy of negating the antecedent (or sometimes called "negating the antecedent and the consequent"). Consider the argument: If you're from Italy, you're from Europe. You're not from Italy, therefore you're not from Europe. Same form, same fallacy. (logic lesson no extra charge)

Maslow's spirit moves on the waters, lo.

That chart seems to say the opposite of Maslow. Maslow says you don't worry about stuff like spirituality until after you've got the food, shelter, and clothing thing nailed up.