I have read this and wanted to comment, but each time I couldn't find the words that I needed to find. Still not sure if I can, but let me try with a few takes.

First off, GUEST, why don't you bugger off?? Many folks here have taken stands on this issue, principled stands, based on their take. And they post their names. I have respect for them, even if I don't agree with a large percentage of them. You are a non entity. You know, like the person that bitches about the state of the government, but doesn't vote. If Brendy left, this place would be a great deal the lesser for it. If you left, no one would miss you.

To those that don't get why Aine and Larry are hurt by this song,......that is exactly the point. It doesn't matter if you can feel, or get, the hurt caused by these things. You are not the victim of them. That is the difference between people of conscience who are trying to make a better world, and people who think that if their world is OK then the rest of the world are a bunch of whiners who lack self motivation. It is not enough to say that you have never discriminated hence you are not the problem. Caring people, people who believe that making the world better for their kids involves making it better for all kids, try to figure out what it is that a group finds offensive. And is sensitive to that.

Aine, you are a brave person to confront these memories. And you are a noble person to embrace your heritage. And you are generous of spirit to share it with us. The feelings that you caused to well up in me are beyond description. Thank you for sharing this. And by the way, Mudcatters, Aine only sought to share her feelings, to give you information that you could make your judgements about this and other issues as concerns the Roma/Pavee. If you are a person who ponders these things, use her brave confession, and the information that Larry has given us to ponder your own feelings about these people.

I think we need to lighten up a bit on Joe. Because he is right? No, because he stepped into something and doesn't know the way out. And because he has done as much to keep this place going as anyone here. I believe that he is focused wrong on this issue. Joe, why are you getting upset that the people most offended by this song aren't posting it? Buy the CD, my friend, and post the lyrics yourself. At no time did I find anyone trying to intimidate anyone else from posting it. They simply refused to post it themselves. And Joe, the title itself is offensive to me. I think that I can imagine the content of this song just from this alone. The title is meant to conjure stereotypical images, and they are negative.

Oh yes, and by the way, you just blew your canonization with the language.................LOL...................I know the feeling. Nice to see that you are human, but I wonder what caused that. I have been here quite a while and never seen that side of you. And lest you misread the context, these are remarks meant to make you chuckle, not get mad.

Do I think that the words should be posted? Absolutely. Am I going to seek them out to do so? Absolutely not. But when someone else does, I will surely read them and make my own judgements. I feel no different about this song than I do about the songs of the Orange Movement. Songs like this, along with these discussions, shape the historical record. It allows those who come after to make their own judgements about our times, and our sensitivities. I am glad for these threads, just as I am happy about the discussions of "The Troubles" and the marching season, and the rebel music. Max has told us that this will all be preserved, that those that come later will be able to read our comments and they will learn. We cannot control what they think of us. But we can contribute information that will be used to shape those opinions. Have some confidence folks, what you are speaks louder than what you say you are.

Brendy, I am very glad that you are here. I don't agree with you on certain issues and wholeheartedly agree with you on others. But you are a straight talker, and a take no prisoners debater. You speak from a heart that is tempered in passion and experience. That is good. I do wish, an Bráithair Brendy, that when you have a person of demonstrated character (like Joe Offer) down, you would leave it there. You won the debate, no need to choke the last breath out of him. Joe is a wonderful person and a friend. Graceful victory is a virtue. You won the debate. Let it lie.

To all, I would ask you to consider this. There was much talk on this subject, but not a whole lot of communication on this thread. That is the fault of the proponents of the various positions. You were so hung up on your respective opinions that you missed the opportunities for understanding, common ground, and true communications. And you talked in circles. I have done it many times, how about we learn from it?

Mick