Gentlemen, put down your engines.

You are (both your houses) banging your heads against beliefs and structures of "how to know" which far too ingrained than to be dislodged by mere communication, let alone cybercommunication.

The structure of these beliefs -- both those in the rigid disciplines of material science and its rigorous institutionalized skepticism - and those of the more traditional who see a clear divide between the logos of the psyche and the flavorless observation of "behaviour" -- is such that whichever or whatever set you deeply bind to your view, that shall ye experience. It makes no more sense to argue with another's clear-cut experience than it does to try and persuade the blind man at the tail of the elephant that he is mistaken.

You see in accordance with the sum total of your own elected, deep-seated beliefs. The religion of the material universe is th emost popular one around on this planet, for obviosu reasons. But there is no reason for anyone to assume that makes it true. Just widely held.

Amos