Subject: RE: BS: True Test of an Atheist
From: GUEST,josep - PM


//"So who's stopping you?"//

Ultimately those who would commit acts of violence against you for saying what you believe.

//"Again, so what? I don't control how people react. They'll probably want to kill you--especially in Texas which I think is the worst place on earth for civilized people. But if you don't stand up to them, nothing will change. So stay silent and suffer or speak up and suffer. I'd rather suffer getting beaten fiar and square than to let someone walk all over me. At least I can be proud of mysef.//

Still, the lack of compassion in saying "so what" makes me wonder if you have a sense of justice.

//I meant it and I feel no shame whatsoever. You choose to live in a hell-hole then suffer. If you don't like it, speak out against it. If you're afraid to do that then leave. How many other situations are you ever in where you get that many choices?//

I don't choose to live in a hell-hole and I don't choose to leave a country who wants to make of it a hell-hole and the fact that I would have to suffer for this sounds very paternalistic and punitive. This "welcome to the world" philosophy is fatalistic and in a sense complacent since it assumes that this is the way things have to be.

//I don't control how people react. If they kill you, they kill you. I can't do anything about that. It's the price you pay sometimes for doing what is right. I've watched too many punk out when they should have stood up and I find it despicable.//

There is a margin of action that can take place to determine how people react. The price of murder for doing what is right is immoral. This is truly despicable.


//"Okay, then, speak out and take whatever lumps come your way. Welcome to the world."//

The fact that one has to take lumps for expressing his/her belief is regrettable. It also emphasizes injustice. To accept that is tantamount to endorsing it. It's a world that too many fatalists excuse and even unwittingly collaborate in creating.

//" If you're not willing to die for what you believe in then you don't really believe in it.//

I think this is an oversimplification. There are different ways in believing in something.
Gallileo believed in his telescope but protected himself against his death so that his wisdom could be later shared by science.

"If people kill you, they kill you" is a statement of denial in that it absolves you of any responsibility to create a just society that doesn't condone killing.


// ''Would you die for your family? Of course, if you didn't then you really don't love them. It's the same thing here. Sometimes the issue is bigger than you."//

But ultimately isn't it an issue about you defending your position?

The fact that anyone has to die for expressing a belief is immoral, particularly in the U.S. which claims "freedom of speech".

OK, the true test of an atheist is to posit a world where these punitive and authoritarian
views of the world are questioned and replaced by a sense of fairness and justice and not endorsed or excused by "religious fatalism". This is true morality.