The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #132816   Message #3011056
Posted By: John P
19-Oct-10 - 06:49 PM
Thread Name: BS: The 'moral' Atheist?
Subject: RE: BS: The 'moral' Atheist?
Amos: And surely the existence or not of "evidence" is also a very gray area when talking about the non-material. Is there "evidence" for beauty. or a sense of destiny?

I think it is fairly obvious that there are lots of things that can't be measured or quantified. Your examples are excellent. These things are not, however, the same as belief in a deity. The fact is that everyone can experience beauty without setting aside reason. That's not possible with religious belief. Lots and lots of people have spiritual experiences that can't as yet be defined by scientific measurement, and those experiences are not unreal or irrational. The problem I have, and, I think, most other atheists on these threads, is that religious people make claims for the occurrence of actual physical events which are patently impossible. I have met many "holy" people in my life and have had many mystical/spiritual experiences, but the idea of god still doesn't make any sense to me, and I've never heard a Christian explain it in a way isn't an exercise in accepting the impossible as fact.

What I'm saying is that I don't need scientific evidence to accept the existence of things that aren't physical, but I still need the conclusions drawn from the existence of those things to make sense. An all-powerful god who can alter the laws of physics, cares about individual human beings, responds to prayer, has the power to forgive, is really three separate beings but is all one being, can become human and die and rise from the dead are just a few of the things that don't make sense -- that are, in fact, irrational -- even if one accepts lots of non-physical reality.