Alan, with all due respect, I totally disagree. To put it simply - would you go onto a similar thread about making an informed jazz programme and say 'you fascists, why are you not including opera singers - it's no wonder you're not successful!'? We are comparing apples to oranges here. If you actually take the time to read my message I was very careful *not* to infer anything like your 'nasty singer songwriters' tone - in fact I make the point that quality songwriters who are working within and around the tradition should be encouraged. However, I *am* unashamedly excluding those songwriters, who use 'folk' clubs as a platform for material that bears literally as much resemblance to 'folk' music as jazz does to opera - valid and valuable as both genres are. You wouldn't sing a Dylan song at a Gilbert and Sullivan Appreciation Society (or, for that matter, paint a surrealist picture in a sculpture class). I really don't see the argument here, and Folkwaves - a worthy and criminally treated institution - has absolutely nothing to do with it. I'm a bit mystified why you think it has - or do you think 'folk' mean 'anything a horse doesn't sing'?

This debate is - thankfully - set to continue among 'folk' and non folk crowds ad infinitum, and that's all part of life. Let's just agree that we're not likely to be attending each other's clubs in the near future.