The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #135275   Message #3085332
Posted By: Bill D
30-Jan-11 - 01:26 PM
Thread Name: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
Subject: RE: BS: Rabbis Push FOX to Bust Beck...
Taconicus... I must respectfully dispute some aspects of your analysis:

"Two basic conflicting desires in the primate mind, Bill: the desire to live your own life the way you want to, and the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to. The former is the individualist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the right, and the latter is the collectivist instinct, and expresses itself in the politics of the left"

Basically, this is not an 'either-or' division, nor is an exhaustive LIST of the various categories in which humans operate. (I'm not sure one is possible, though we can narrow it for purposes of debate.)
   Neither one is limited to left or right politics, and in particular, the 2nd concept.."...the desire to make other people live their lives the way you want them to.".. is certainly NOT specific to the left. I have thought about this quite a bit, and 'usually' break it down into 2 sub-categories.. **the desire to have people think like you want, and the desire to make people act/behave like you want, whether they think like you or not.**
On the left, folks certainly hope that 'they' can be taught to 'think like us'... but there is a very strong drive on the RIGHT to demand adherence to a 'standard of behavior', expressed in attempts to force religious doctrines, such as 'public prayer' and Biblical references in public places (money, Pledge of Allegiance, 10 Commandments monuments..etc.). This is an attempt to instill the definition of this as a *Christian Nation* into everyday parlance, despite what the Constitution says, and no matter who is made uncomfortable by it. (I can cite many personal examples, and you can read about it almost weekly). There are other examples involving gun laws, states rights, tax policy..etc, that look/sound like expressions of the desire for "personal freedom" on the surface, but when unpacked indicate a desire to **impose** personal & political attitudes on others.
   This assertion I make requires quite a lot of explication to adequately defend/explain, because it involves much linguistic analysis and references to philosophic "informal fallacies"

Let's see if I can express it with an example:
   When conservative politics says: "We want to reduce or eliminate excessive regulation and promote 'free market enterprise' and 'individual initiative'"., this often translates into "We want businesses to be able to make whatever they wish, using whatever ingredients they care to, charge whatever they want, advertise without supervision, pay whatever wages they care to, be free of environmental restrictions and do whatever necessary to eliminate competition!"
Of course they don't SAY such things in clear language, but that's what lobbyists are paid to strive for. Thus, I feel that part 2 above.."**...the desire to make people act/behave like you want, whether they think like you or not.** is the rights way of saying they wish to IMPOSE on society their 'freedom' to do whatever they care to.

How does this attitude differ from what the left tries to do? Well, think of it this way: If the 'left' prevailed and the division between church & state were really clearly expressed and maintained, conservative Christians could still go to church and worship as they please, raise their children as they wish, and pray to God **silently**, whether in school, before meetings...or at football games. If the 'right' prevailed, everyone else would be forced to endure public prayer at those events no matter what their personal religion or lack of it. The right tries to frame the issue as "attempts to restrict their freedom", when the guiding principle should be: "Freedom OF religion necessarily involves freedom FROM religion for those who wish it."
(I use religion because it is perhaps the easiest example to describe semi-briefly... business, states rights, guns, abortion..etc., take a lot more typing)


So... I keep trying to ward off what seems to me to be over-simplified responses to these issues, and get at what gets hidden in slogans and talking points....no matter how honest and sincere.

As Alfred North Whitehead said:"Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it."

(I don't dare start on Whittle's remark "The Tea Party movement, as anyone who has ever attended a Tea Party rally can tell you, are the most decent, kind, gentle, normal people in the world, ... right now. Counter-examples are numerous.

Well, THAT shot my free time for awhile......I have tedious plumbing to do...