Very eloquent opening post by Joe, followed by a remarkably good-spirited discussion.

After too many years of Catholic education, often but not always uncomfortably oppressive, I stopped participating in the Church well over forty years ago. I've always believed, absolutely, in a spiritual dimension beyond what's visible here in the world of finite time and space, while at the same time maintaining a strong agnosticism as regards the exact nature of whatever that might be.

Unlike the popular proponents of rationalist atheism, I can't accept the proposition that, because something's existence cannot be proven, it necessary cannot exist. On the contrary, I believe quite firmly that something far beyond human understanding certainly must exist.

That does not, however, entail acceptance of all the doctrines put forward by any church. All the organized religions are human institutions and have shown themselves to be subject to human imperfection. Very much so.

I grow tired of all the accusations that "religion" is to blame for all the various injustices and cruelties of human history. All these ills have been endemic to society as a whole and enforced by the various ruling elites; that religious leaders have usually been part of every society's privileged classes is a fact that demonstrates the human imperfection of the churches, but has nothing to do with the true message of Christ or Buddha or whoever, nor with the faith of the vast majority of believers.

In a nutshell, I would propose the argument that the only real spiritual truths promulgated by any religion are those very few tenets shared by all religions: to value truth and goodness (i.e., to "love God"), and to transcend the limitations of self (to love one's neighbor as oneself). This is the key to achieving higher consciousness.

Beyond such abstract philosophical considerations, we also need to consider the function of church congregations as communities. In the aftermath of Katrina, I was deeply affected by the kindness of strangers, groups of folks from faraway towns arriving at my home to help with the hard labor of cleanup and reconstruction. Some of the groups were quite explicit, even perhaps a little loud, in proclaiming their faith, often a very simplistic form of faith that I couldn't possibly share. But no one ever prosylitized, tried to convert me, or whatever; everyone was always helpful and humble and personable.

FWIW, I never observed a single bus-full of secular humanists on a "mission" trip to help us flood victims try to put our lives back together. Every bunch that showed up with chain saws, haz-mat suits, hammers and saws, etc., was affiliated with some church or synagogue. (I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few mosques ~ Muslim groups ~ in addition to the many Christian and Jewish communities; I just didn't see any.) For whatever reason, only communities organized around some explicitly religious principle seemed able to muster the organizational strength and resolve to actually make such a trip.

One closing note, perhaps a bit on the negative side: I'm very dismayed that anyone would feel "insulted" by a troubled fellow-Mudcatter's request for prayers. If you are truly able to accept that other folks may hold beliefs different from your own, you should be able to accept such a message in the spirit in which it is offered. In other words: Get over yourself! Just as you expect others to realize that our community includes significant numbers of unbelievers, you need to recognize that there are believers among us as well.

I have serious doubts of my own about petitional prayer; I tend towards the belief of "non-theistic" Buddhists, that the spiritual laws of karma, etc., are hard and fast, and that none of us can expect special treatment because we "ask" for favoritism on behalf of the Divine. My idea of the value of prayer ~ or, more precisely, of meditation ~ lies in its role in transforming oneself, placing oneself in closer harmony with the creative force of the universe and thereby with greater hope of experiencing favorable outcomes. In other words ~ in words well-known in the context of "old time religion" ~ we pray/meditate in order to "get right with God."