The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #137528   Message #3167650
Posted By: Teribus
09-Jun-11 - 10:31 AM
Thread Name: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
Subject: RE: BS: obit: Osama Bin Laden ???
1: "8 women, 13 children and either 4 or 5 adult males - my lousy maths makes that 21 non- combatants in all."

Why do you automatically assume that the 8 women are non-combatants?

2: "the domestic dwellings in the immediate area, many of them adjacent to the compound"

Here are aerial photographs of the "compound" and a drawing detailing 12'; 13'; & 18' perimeter concrete walls:

The 2,000lb bomb would have killed everybody inside the compound damage outside would have been fairly slight, I expect that you have witnessed the effects of a 2,000lb bomb detonating Jim? If you haven't then the walls deflect the blast upwards before they themselves are knocked down, the shock wave always takes the line of least resistance.

3: "the only people here supporting terrorism are those defending or excusing US behaviour, particularly in regard (or in the US's case, disregard) towards civilians."

Okay for civilian deaths let's just have a look at Afghanistan since 14th April 1978.

April 1978 to October 2001:

Between 2,100,000 to 2,700,000 Afghan citizens killed by Afghan Communists; Soviet 40th Army; Mujahideen War-Lords; Taliban. Over the period that works out using the lower figure at a daily average of 248 Afghan civilians killed every single day for that 23 year period

October 2001 to December 2010:

Since 7th October 2001 there has been an international force operating inside Afghanistan charged with the protection of the general population. Since October 2001 taking the worst case estimates some 35,000 Afghan civilians have been killed in Afghanistan 80% of those have been killed by the Anti-Government Forces (Afghan Taliban; Hekmatyar; Haqqani; Pakistan Taliban; Al-Qaeda). Over the period that works out at a daily average of 10 Afghan civilians killed every single day for that 10 year period. Since ISAF have taken charge throughout Afghanistan (2006) the daily average of Afghan civilians killed each day has dropped to 5 per day of whom 4 are killed by the Taliban.

Don't know how good your mathematics is Jim but I make that a reduction in the average daily total of civilian deaths in Afghanistan of some 96%. And for this US Forces are to be condemned, best ask the citizens of Afghanistan how quickly and how eagerly they wish for a return of the "Good Old Days"

4: "The first of these articles also carried the information that he was unarmed and was shot directly in the face while fleeing"

Anything strike you as being odd about that? How on earth can you be shot in the face whilst fleeing? If you are fleeing you are running away. To be shot in the face you must be running towards, unless of course Osama bin Laden was running backwards at the time.

A combatant running is a legitimate target, a combatant standing still with his hands open over his head is surrendering and is not.

Personally I found at the time a number of strange things about this:

a: If the orders were get him dead or alive then OK that is a judgement call on whoever it is that first comes upon him. As you seem to believe the tale he was running therefore a legitimate target, as nobody could tell for certain what he was running for or towards.

b: If it was an ordered assassination then no-one in the compound would have been left alive and no-one would ever have known that the raid actually took place.

c: What if the man in the compound was not bin Laden? Then he would have to have been shot. His body would have to have been spirited away and disposed of where no-one could ever find it and examine it. The raid and the death of bin Laden would be publicised to the high heavens and shouted from the roof tops. WHY all of this? Because it would then force Al-Qaeda to either produce bin Laden alive to refute the claim of his death, or confirm bin Laden as being dead.

All I know for certain is that the raid and the result of the raid was shouted from the roof-tops, there have been no photographs shown of the dead body that clearly show him as being Osama bin Laden and they made absolutely sure that the body will never be recovered for examination and Al-Qaeda did confirm that Osama bin Laden was dead beyond all shadow of a doubt.

5: "There is no information regarding bin Laden's direct or planning role in operations and it is generally thought that he didn't have one, but was a spiritual and inspirational leader; maybe you should pass on the unique information you appear to have to those who can make better use of it."

1996 - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed proposes the idea of what eventually became the 9/11 attacks to Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. The plan is rejected by OBL as being over-elaborate and on too grand a scale, OBL's objection is that with those numbers involved it would never be kept secret. On the technical side OBL also objected to the idea of taking over aircraft on long distance flights flying into the USA as they would arrive at the target destinations with minimal fuel onboard. So KSM was told to go away and re-think the operation.

1998 - Plan resubmitted now using internal long haul flights taking off from US airports on the eastern seaboard to attack targets in New York and Washington DC. WTC picked on the directions of OBL in revenge for those taken in earlier failed Al-Qaeda attack on the same building complex (1993). The plan is now approved by OBL and handed to Mohammed Atef, Al-Qaeda's Chief of Operations. Atef selects Yemenis for the mission but unfortunately as it was discovered in training, they are not good material as prospective airline pilot candidates and their english is simply just not up to it. The Operation is postponed for a second time.

<1998 - Elsewhere Al-Qaeda has organised and planned two operations from inside Afghanistan that successfully blew up two US Embassies in East Africa. One of the side effects of this is that it becomes more difficult to obtain US entry visa from the middle and near east. Atef is instructed by bin Laden to get recruits for the attack on the US mainland from Europe.

1999- Atef's talent scouts locate and groom Mohammed Atta in Germany. In November of 1999 Atta and four others fly first to Pakistan then cross the border into Afghanistan where they are all interviewed by Osama bin Laden. OBL selects Atta to lead the operation and briefs him on the plan.

2000 - The attack on the USS Cole in Yemen

2001 - 9/11 attack + aftermath. The only thing that OBL and the Taliban have underestimated is the US response under GWB. The only thing they have not taken into account and completely overlooked are the ramifications of attacking the US mainland - Mullah Mohammed Omar will regret that oversight until the day he dies, it cost him a country.

And you say what Jim that Osama bin Laden was the "spiritual" leader?? No hand in operational decisions or direction? Bollocks.