Too bad we live so far apart, Bill, cos I'd love to get together at the local cafe and talk about all this stuff in depth.

One of the problems with (organized) religion is this: People in that religion get hung up on thing that were said a VERY long time ago...by someone who lived under radically different conditions with radically different challenges...and they just follow it literally without considering that it was applicable then...but it isn't now.

When those lines about being fruitful and multiplying were first written, they made a great deal of sense. They were written in a culture of scattered tribes, a limited population living in a world that still had vast possibilities for human expansion, vast untapped natural resources, no technology, little pollution, etc.

It made SENSE for those people to be encouraged to be fruitful and multiply! Just as it made sense for Indians in sparsely populated North America to do the same.

It doesn't make sense now, because the conditions of human society now are radically different, and we're running out of water, arable land, and other vital resources.

So....if the very same philosopher types who brought forth that exhortation in their time were living NOW...they'd probably have something quite different to say to the masses. Their priorities and their ideas would be different.

It is people's clinging to old ideas and their reluctance to look for new ones that is the problem...not just religion.

Understand what I'm saying?

I've been interested in spiritual philosophy since my early 20s, study it all the time, find some good in ALL the religions...and some misunderstanding in most of them too...but I focus on the good that's in them....just as I focus on the good that's in science, technology, and non-religious thought. I am not an enemy of any of them.

I think people are of tremendous value, and I mean each and every human being. I think we are capable of creating a magnificent society all over his planet, if we can see beyond the most immediate and selfish concerns. I am probably in favor of pretty much every progressive notion that you or saulgoldie are in favour of...and I think we CAN triumph over our weaknesses and our darker side. I think human beings are magnificent in their potential. I think they are intrinsically good, not bad.

I was disturbed by the extreme negativity of saul's comments about the human race on this planet, and that's why I responded as sharply to his comments as I did. I don't like to see people running the human race down in that way, even if they ARE doing it for what they see as idealistic reasons.

I don't think we're miserable, dirty, and destructive. I think we are each valuable beyond measure and capable of greatness.