I'm not as venerable as either Bill or Greg, but I venture to say I think the real point being missed, and it's one I raised months ago. When these get put to the vote it will not be decided (directly) by the enthusiasts from either camp, but by those who are either genuinely undecided or, more likely I am afraid, those asking where their personal political advantage lies. That's why neither bunch of enthusiasts can afford to let the others talk away and just assume 'those of good sense' will simply agree with them