Thanks, Bruce...

I do want to note that one of my reasons for continuing to debate/reply/answer people that have seemingly made up their minds and are not amenable to reason...is that this forum persists. It is 16 years old now, and may be here quite awhile. Who knows when a long ignored thread may be found? I like to see the most relevant, thought-out commentary on these issues left for possible readers later..(yeah...and I am confident that mine have some relevance).
Also... sitting & typing these replies helps ME to organize my thoughts and spurs me to look up stuff that I am not sure about.... and it IS important to read the arguments of those I DIS-agree with...and to follow links to sites like Creation.com where I encounter some of the more... ummm...'interesting' aspects of conservative, religious claims.

You cannot really defend a position unless you can reasonably state the opposition's position.

Besides, all these issues are becoming a serious part of my country's political debates. Several candidates for president are asserting VERY conservative religious positions into their advertising and speeches, and seemingly trying to send the USA down the path to a theocracy.... subverting the way our Constitution was written.

It is not right for ANY religious group to insert their specific views of morality, evolution, rights and other beliefs into the lives of those who do not agree. The only sane way I see around this is to educate....to show what makes sense as a reasonable argument.
I do not require or expect everyone to believe...(or not believe)... as I do, but I DO expect them to KEEP those beliefs to themselves and to their churches and not usurp my rights.


so... I play this game, trying to be reasonably polite, but firm, when I encounter stubborn ignorance (not stupidity...some are quite 'intelligent')...but willful ignorance about how logic and science operate.
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repost:one of my favorite Peanuts cartoons:

Charlie Brown is walking along when he comes to Lucy, kneeling and looking at something on the sidewalk..."What are you doing , Lucy?"

"Charlie Brown--see this big black bug? Do you know why it's so much bigger than the others? Because it's the QUEEN!"..........so Charlie gets down and peers closely...

"Lucy, that's not a bug...that's a black jelly bean!"

Lucy gives him this LOOK and bends to scrutinize the bug again..."Why, so it is!...I wonder how a Jelly bean ever got to be queen!"

There's no way to make the point when your 'victim' just redefines the rules and explains that anything you say just proves his point.