well thanks bill.i think that most people start from their own position presupposing certain things ,though there may be the truly undecided but they are not evident on this thread IMO. I suspect some may not be as sure as they claim to be' as they feel the need to ridicule-but i would not want to be dogmatic on that.like you i think discussion is useful though you probably appreciate that as a christian i believe there is a spiritual dimension-even if the points i raise are unacceptable and no one here believes.pete.