For what it's worth, I wasn't offended by Suibhne's post addressing what I said, simply bemused. There didn't seem to be anything offensive, but I really could make no sense of it, so I didn't bother to reply.

Jim: I see what you mean now about Walter Pardon and agree that if people join in they should so so with some sensitivity to the way the singer chooses to sing. Again, that seems like basic respect and good manners. And I was serious in what I said about the church - church harmonies have had a huge effect on our communal singing habits (which I like); also,the church has taken lots of good tunes and dragged them down to a funereal pace (which I don't like).

But choral singing a 21st-century phenomenon? Come on, most of us (and you) are old enough to have experienced it at least a few decades back into the 20th century. And the Copper family's style, albeit somewhat exceptional in the English tradition, has been hugely influential and goes back further than that. Also, the strong tradition of amateur choirs and choral societies, particularly in England and Wales since the 19th century, has meant that many people first experience singing in the context of church choirs and harmonies.

Marje