(i wrote a long and detailed reply on here this morning and have just sent the last 6 hours wandering around loweswater and crummock - when i get back my message ain't here -d'oh!)

anyway, the gist of it was that socialism does not inevitably lead to rule by stalin and the rest of those guys. i think it's power corrupting that leads to the abuses produced by such dictators- no matter what they may claim their original motivation was. we have working examples of democratic socialism in the more progressive countries in northern europe (inc. scotland) and all democracies have some element of socialist thinking in their aims. also there is some hope in southern america where countries are increasingly rejecting the shock doctrine ultra-capitalist 'remedies' insisted upon by the usa, and trying to have a government that is more responsive to the needs of the ordinary citizen. my own personal favourite description of a desired socialist state is at the start of orwell's 'homage to catalonia' - but other than that and positives that have come from cuba- it does seem to be an elusive goal.

anyway, currently we are dealing with a rampant and ruthless capitalism that has no interest in democracy or a common humanity. the 1% wage class war on the rest of us and we roll over and take it. bad government is the fault of the people who let it happen - we are all too busy with the bread and circusses served up for our 'benefit' (like squabbling on the internet) to seriously challenge a system where a minority laugh at us poor sods, while handing each other huge amounts of unearned income. (again) -does anyone think that the current system is sensible or fair? why do we continue to vote for the interchangeable (in uk and usa at least) parties who offer us slightly modified more of the same?

mgm - re name calling etc. it is not just the left who do this -we are all equally guilty of getting over-heated at times. as a general rule, i would think that folk on the left should have more respect for each other. we know that capitalists like to divide and rule, to encourage fear and hatred of the other - but our (red!) standards should be higher than that.

and it is quite rare that we answer each others' points -it is quicker and easier to mock or insult.