Stringsinger, olddude has a point. The recent overabundance of threads on atheism is annoying, no matter who has started them. There was already a thread titled BS: Militant atheism has become a religion - and there were already far too many atheist threads before that. Anything said in this thread, could have been said in the other threads.

You ask, Why is it that a civilized discussion about it can't take place? Well, I like to talk about religious issues; but I don't want to be in a place where people think I'm pushing my religion on somebody else. I also don't really want to be forced into a place where I feel pressured to defend my religion. And I'm sorry, but I feel no need to apologize for molester priests or abusive nuns or obnoxious door-to-door evangelists - I have never supported any of those activities at any time in my life, so why should I feel bound to apologize for them. I've devoted my life to social justice and tolerance, so why should I feel compelled to apologize for anyone who is unjust or intolerant? I've questioned my religious faith and my religious denomination (Catholic) all my life. I know damn well what are the shortcomings of my religious denomination, and I've fought those shortcomings for decades. I don't want to be condemned for those shortcomings, because I have never supported them.

I've known about the Spanish Inquisition and child molesting priests all my life, and I have NEVER supported them - but yet I am continually attacked in this forum because of them. I've been called a child molester in this forum, simply because I'm Catholic - and despite the fact that I have worked long and hard to prevent sexual abuse in my church.

I do have a strong religious faith. I see the sacred in most everything that surrounds me - but I want to enjoy and appreciate that and I really don't want to defend it or argue about it. I have utmost respect for science and the scientific method - but I also enjoy what I see as an experience of the presence of the divine in all that science describes. But that's a personal thing, and I don't want to burden others with that if they don't see things the way I see them.

Aside to pete from seven stars link: I'm sorry, but I can't see the creation story in the bible as scientific truth. I think Darwin does a far better job of describing how it happened, even though some details may be different. Still, I see the Bible as an important statement of the presence of the divine from before the beginning of all things. If other people don't see the divine in what I see, that's fine with me - just don't bug me about it.

-Joe-