Anyway, it's pretty much useless talking about this stuff in a crowd of people on a forum. Too many cooks confuse the soup. If any two people here could sit down and quietly talk about it at length just to each other, without other people jumping in, they might actually reach the point of achieving some useful understanding of each other's point of view...but as it is...given the sniping and oneupmanship that occurs in the presence of an internet crowd...it's hopeless. That's why I seldom get involved in serious discussions here any longer.