Joe, if you read what I just typed, I hardly think you could say I wasn't being, in some sense, positive. The holy folks I worked with worked in the East End of London. If you weren't pragmatic, as opposed to dogmatic, with East-enders, you'd sink like a stone. What informed the attitude of the monks, nuns, brothers and priests (and bishops, while we're at it) was their connection with real people with real problems (and God was probably the last thing on their minds). After all these posts and PMs over the years I'm amazed that you still think I see things in black and white.