GUEST, SJL:   "You cannot go by this or that quote attributed to him. Personally, I think Socrates was a bit of an anarchist."

SJL, I am not going by "this or that quote," I'm going by what was discussed in an entire quarter of classes in the Philosophy Department at the University of Washington, a large part of which was listening to a discussion between two philosophy professors. Very detailed and very erudite.

By the way, who here has actually read Xenophon and Plato?

I have.

And was Socrates a bit of an anarchist? Definitely not. But definitely an iconoclast and a bit of a gadfly. He advocated a strong central government ruled by what he termed "philosopher kings" (he being one of them), with the idea that "the common man" was too stupid and ignorant to make important decisions regarding governing, despite the fact that public education standards for Athenian citizens were quite high, even—especially—compared to our own. After all, it behooved a man to keep up on things if he could be drafted for office at any time, and if he screwed up, he could be banished.

There are people today who believe that governing should be limited to "the elite." They're usually called "conservatives," who, when you boil it down to its basics, means government by an aristocracy, either hereditary as in the "old days" or by the wealthiest, as is the case now.

By the way, are there conspiracies? Damned straight there are! But you aren't going to find them on blogs and web sites, where Songwronger and the other loonies here go gleaning. If you keep your eyes open and your brain in gear, they're right out there in plain sight. A small example is the fat cat with a valise full of money buttonholing a vulnerable Congressman or Senator and having a quite chat with him while petting the valise.

THAT's a conspiracy.

Don Firth