The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #146180   Message #3547236
Posted By: Jim Carroll
09-Aug-13 - 09:11 AM
Thread Name: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
Subject: RE: Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer
"But where does one draw the line?"
As you rightly point out Mike, the dubious behaviour goes back a long way - where does one draw the line?
Mark Anderson was recorded by MacColl and Littlewood on behalf of the BBC in the 1940s for a specific radio programme 'The Ballad Hunters' - no idea whether he was paid - BBC's record on this is not a bright and shining one -in my experience they have always acted towards non-professionals as if they were doing you a favour by including you in their programmes.
MacColl and Littlewood were certainly paid for the work they did on the programme - fair enough, they were employed by the producer, Olive Shaply to do a job.
MacColl as collector never attempted to copyright the song as far as I know - nor did he ever lay claim to ownership of it and always credited it, in my hearing anyway, to Anderson (one of his regular introductions to it).
I have no problem whatever with MacColl or Carthy or anybody singing it or recording it - that's why we do what we do as far as I'm concerned and it's what we tell our singers - we don't want their songs to die.
The song is, I think, regarded as being in Public Domain, which is as it should be.
I'm quite sure Mark Anderson wouldn't have dreamed of asking for payment for its use - in thirty years nobody ever asked us.
It's after this that we enter dark waters in my opinion.
I understand Simon got it from Dylan, who got it from Martin Carthy, who got it from Anderson's version.
I have no doubt whatever that no money changed hands as far as Marin was concerned, but I am equally sure that it was a different story with Dylan and Simon
Simon used it in an adapted but identifiable form which he copyrighted
Dylan used it for the basis of one of his songs, which he copyrighted - had it been the work of a known composer, neither his nor Simon's feet wouldn't have touched the ground regarding the legality of this.
In my opinion one of the more unsavoury practices today is the copyrighting of "arrangements - all traditional songs are, by their very nature "arranged".
Just a heads up on what Kennedy actually did (hope you're paying attention Cap'n)
He recorded singers throughout Britain and Ireland on behalf of the BBC - I don't really know if any singers were paid, but I suspect that, given the Beeb's prevailing attitude to 'the peasants', I doubt it.
The singers were asked to sign contracts passing on the rights of their material over to whoever - I think the BBC
Some of the contracts (maybe not the official ones) included not just the material recorded, but anything the singers might remember in the future.
I know from one highly regarded collector that when he approached one of Kennnedy's Devon singers much later he was told "Peter asked me not to give my songs to anybody else".
Somewhere along the way the BBC appeared to lose interest in the recordings and Kennedy took ownership of them, sold them and charged for their use - he built a business out of material that had been paid for with BBC listeners and viewers licence fees.
I've outlined his disgraceful behaviour in the Munnelly/John Reilly case.
Going on for far too long again, but a couple of stories of how all this contrasts with the attitude of some of the source singers we've met or heard about.
We recorded a magnificent old singer named Martin Reidy from Clare in the West of Ireland.
He gave us a rake of songs in his home, with its roof with a hole in it, no electricity, the only source of water was a single tap in the kitchen and the only way to preserve his meat was to hang it on a hook over the open fire (still have pictures of the fly-encrusted piece of bacon that was his staple diet).
He became quite offended once when, after we found we had forgotten to bring our customary six-pack, we tried to offer money to for "a pint on us".
When we had known him for a few years he told us "You know, I was delighted when you people started coming up for the songs - I was so worried they were would die out when I go that I tried to teach Topsy (his dog and only company) to sing them.
Another.
Cairán Mac Mathúna, the Irish collector and broadcaster used to tell the story of when he was recording an old farmer/fiddle player living in similar circumstances to Martin Reidy, in Kerry.
When they had finished the session Cairán said, "Now - there is the question of the recording fee".
The old man thought for a minute, then said, "I haven't got any money in the house just now, but I'm taking a bullock to the market tomorrow, so I'll pay you then, if that's all right".
These people really desrve better than shark-pools and indifference.
It was always the source singer' generosity that impressed us most of all, and it is the betrayal of that generosity that has appalled me the most when it comes to the treatment they have received at the hands of Kennedy and his ilk - and from the general disinterest regarding that treatment - including the not-so-veiled hostility in raising this matter shown on this thread.
Jim out-of-breath Carroll