""But how often is it that one must vow absolute obedience to the positions of any organization as a condition of membership? It really doesn't happen very often, so why should it be a requirement for membership in a church?...believers,...must make the final decision regarding their own lives...official statements by the Catholic Church on moral issues, are rarely, if ever, stated in the form of commands.""

I actually have no issue with what you say, Joe Offer, as it all seems most reasonable and is likely the "way it is" for many RC folks (and also likely in other churches).

It also seems illogical (to me) that mere membership in any church, or even a belief in a religion, or Deity puts those members in a position of higher morality (though there are various definitions of that word). I doubt that, as a group, they lie any less or more than most any other group (depending on culture). It seems reasonable that most lies (recognizing that some may be more serious in nature) are seen as low on the "sin list scale" in most religions today. I recall that even Christian scriptures indicated situations where lies by the faithful are ok.

However, the points of my questions were mostly around Pete's statement ""it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ...they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith."" Since they were stated, I was seeking any evidence (from Pete, or anyone) that this statement is reasonable, or not. My initial feeling is it is not reasonable-but I am open to being swayed by a convincing case.


In my questions to pete, I only used the RC church example, as you had earlier made some statements to build on - not that I am singling out any one religion to "pick on".


Anyway, possibly this topic has been exhausted anyway, as I have not seen any good evidence to validate pete's (above) statement. However, I will check out the links Grishka provided, as it seems potentially interesting.