"In a discussion like this the only loyalty we have should be to what we believe to be the truth. Getting all adversarial about it, identifying enemies and friends, staying silent when someone "on our side" says something wrong, and always seeking to interpret what the enemy says in the worst possible light... That's not about loyalty to the truth, it's about trying to win a war."

There speaks the voice of truth and reason. One of the few in this thread (Joe qualifies also, of course).

The Usual Suspects - you need to READ AND LEARN.