The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #152785 Message #3581640
Posted By: Teribus
05-Dec-13 - 03:07 AM
Thread Name: BS: Armistice Day (debate)
Subject: RE: BS: Armistice Day (debate)
Ah Musket, I would dearly like to know what in my single contribution to this thread could have been considered "jingoistic"?
Jingoism being defined as - "Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism."
The discussion that appears to be raging between yourself and Keith relates to whether or not the vast majority of those who fought for Britain in the First World War were simpletons, dumb hewers of wood and drawers of water who were duped and manipulated into fighting for a cause that they didn't, or shouldn't have believed in.
One of the greatest tragedies of the First World War was the universal loss right across the board of a generation that were in a position to contribute and make the world a far, far better place, through their education, understanding, sense of duty, obligation and responsibility. This was the generation that should have been left alone to peacefully divest the great colonial powers of their empires. You may scoff at that but financially the empire from about the 1880s onwards was actually costing Great Britain money and its days were numbered.
"If it wasn't for education, universal suffrage and cosmopolitan thinking by all those people with world views, we might have had to resort to things that recent revisionists play down, such as
Marches through towns to impress young ladies to get their men to join them. - No the marches through towns were not designed for that purpose, their object was to boost the morale of those who had just joined and to reinforce the belief that they were part of a cohesive unit about to go and do their duty as their forefathers had done before them - had they wanted to impress young ladies they would have held tea dances and band recitals - much more effective.
"Recruiting sergeants waiting outside pubs to get them whilst pissed." - Really? I think that maybe you should go away and study recruitment patterns and then apply that to some of the dearly held myths you so obviously believe - By the way Recruiting Sergeants traditionally hung about to invite young men inside pubs in order to get men pissed so that they would then enlist. Of the 5 million+ men who made up the British Armed Forces (1 in 4 of the male population) roughly half were volunteers and half were conscripts. Conscription didn't come in until 1916 and at the start only single men could be conscripted.
"Women being told of their duty to give white feathers to any man without a uniform." - Want to know who "told them" to do that? The Woman's Suffrage Movement - I get the impression that you thought it was a trick devised by the evil aristocrats in Government - it wasn't.
"Draconian punishment for being shell shocked."
- Really? What "draconian" punishments are you referring to? Again you need to do some actual research instead of relying on myth.
"Capital punishment for those for whom the penny had dropped."
The facts are as follows - "During the course of the First World War there were 240,000 Courts Martial, 3080 Death Sentences handed down, in only 346 cases was the sentence carried out."
Out of those 346 cases, 301 of them fall in with your "draconian" punishment deal, although not all were "shell shocked", and all were pardoned posthumously on the 7th November, 2006
- 266 British soldiers were executed for "Desertion".
- 18 for "Cowardice"
- 7 for "Quitting a post without authority"
- 5 for "Disobedience to a lawful command"
- 2 for "Casting away arms"
"After all, every soldier knew their duty. Sadly, many thought so." - Yes they were of a generation that appreciated that they did not only have rights, but they also had a moral sense of obligation, something the country in general has now lost completely.
Unfortunately you apply present day thinking to past events.