Michael, you disappoint me. I was looking forward to trying to argue the toss with someone who can return the grenade still ticking!

Perhaps the work of the late Mr Bellamy with regard to Kipling and forming the Edwardian view of military endeavour may be of use in the present WW1 thread. Keith appears to be sinking. He has been listing to port for a while mind.

Regarding your conversation over belief, I find one thing curious. You were on a voyage of discovery, taking stock etc and presumably didn't find the hidden treasure. Those who advertise the treasure could never accept that you can deprive someone of lack of faith. Such depriving would be seen in their eyes as enlightenment.

And that is when everybody runs home to polish their guns.