respect to ya too ,spaw, but this is something I care about passionately. I could care less what people think of me, or ham, but as you probably realize ,the faith that works for me includes believing the bible as Gods word. but despite the caricature that this is creationists only argument , there is much more to it than that.   as to the quote from ham ,which you colourfully dismiss, I wonder if you have read anything from creationists on this. it is easy to follow the herd. I have confessed to my limited science knowledge , but I do know that time moving at different speeds at sea level and ,say on top of a mountain is observable science, so I would think that might be a beginning of calculating the problem.......and as ham pointed out, evolutionists have their own time/starlight problems.