Another dimension, Ed, is that both Ake and Guffers ex-amity are both utterly obsessed with homosexuality. I find that to be rather suspicious, actually. It is the favourite topic of both by a country mile. Yet one claims to be a socialist and the other claims that he has counselled people with all manner of personal problems. You shouldn't be so amazed that no progress is made here in humanising these two people. There is something horridly obsessive, vindictive and thoroughly ingrained about their prejudice. You don't change people like that in a hurry.