The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #150911   Message #3610541
Posted By: Teribus
18-Mar-14 - 08:48 AM
Thread Name: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
"Ireland's fate in such circumstances was the direct responsibility of the British Empire, Peel's Government acknowledged that fact and made some attempts to alleviate the catastrophe."

Direct responsibility of the British Empire eh? How? Did the British Empire have a Parliament then Christmas? If it did I have never heard of it, or anyone who purportedly led it? Where would this British Empire Government stand in precedence and relation to say the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1845? Would it be superior or inferior? Of course no such parliament existed and there was no overriding monolith called the British Empire, even if there was it would have no say with regard to affairs in Ireland post the Union in 1801 which made Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

The Tory Government of Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington wanted to do more for Ireland than just simply repeal the 1815 Corn Laws they wanted to push ahead with Catholic Emancipation, but the Corn Law topic split their party and Peel needed help from the Liberal Opposition. The Government lost a vote in the Commons and Peel went to the country which returned Russell's Liberal government.

"The Russell administration abandoned that responsibility, dismantled the few, inadequate measures that Peel had installed and decided to give the market a free hand; they actually stated than nothing should be done to hinder the free market."

That was the ticket that they had been elected on and the Corn Laws of 1815 remained repealed. I think that the one thing that yourself and Ms Kinealy have forgotten is that the political process in the UK does not run on diktat, if a law has to be passed it must first be presented and debated in the House of Commons and passed, it then goes to the House of Lords where they can suggest amendments and then it gets passed into law.

"Their role wasn't just passive, but an extremely active one - continuing to ship food out of Ireland, "

To suggest that it was the British Government who insisted that food be shipped out of Ireland is just fanciful nonsense, the Corn Laws having been repealed, meant that those who farmed and grew the food could sell it where they liked for the best price their crops could sell for. Remember these were "Irish" farmers selling their produce, and that there was no way of getting this produce to the west of Ireland and no means to store and distribute it there. No point at all in apportioning blame where it does not belong or in suggesting totally impracticable solutions and fancifully imagining that things could be done that were impossible at the time.

"It's sole contribution to the crisis was to create a situation where the only solution to the crisis was to emigrate (stated policy) and set up assisted passage schemes."

Yep that just about sums it up – Ireland was vastly over-populated, it's track record was extremely poor as were its future prospects unless things were done to get people off the land. Judge for yourself, famines in 1727-1730; 1740-1741; 1782-1783, what would you suggest? Just let things drift on as they were, hoping for the best, with a burgeoning population boom only serving to make matters worse in the future? Not even sheep are dumb enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

"They deliberately set out to alter the economic and cultural structure of Ireland so it would no longer be the thorn in the side of the Empire that it had been for centuries - and they would have succeeded had it not been for the continuing opposition of 1867 and the Land League Wars, eventually leading to the War of Independence.

The economic and cultural structure of Ireland did need altering, some say it still does as recent events have shown.

"Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense" - Christine Kinealy

Idiotic argument – that would have required legislation passed in Parliament. Do you want ports opened or closed? If you have closed the ports for exports how do you get imports in? Imports of what? The famine did not just strike in Ireland it struck the whole of Europe and every country in Europe was buying up American cereal crops so what is it that you are going to import that wasn't already being imported?

Ms Kinealy conveniently dismisses the lack of ports, the lack of railways and the poor roads as mere inconsequential details. But real problems and lack of infrastructure cannot be by-passed and dismissed in retrospect with a wave of a historians magic wand. Food once harvested tends to go rotten rather rapidly unless it is distributed quickly. In 19th century Ireland that just couldn't happen.

"Following the defeat of Napoleonic France in 1815, Britain enjoyed a century of almost unchallenged dominance and expanded its imperial holdings across the globe."

Fail to see the relevance of this

"The gombeen men were a side effect - in no way a cause"

On the contrary Christmas in the west of Ireland the Gombeen men were the cause by forcing fishermen to sell their gear and boats, to repay their debts at ruinous interest, thereby crippling them twice over, once by robbing them of their livelihoods and twice by robbing the population of a bountiful source of protein.

This next one is the typical "socialists" mantra (i.e. It is always some else's fault):

"Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they deliberately abused that responsibility for the 'good of Empire'."

Ehmm No. Ireland was the responsibility of the people who lived there, same as Scotland was the responsibility of the Scots who lived there (No equivalent of the Gombeen Men in Scotland Christmas – so the Highlands did not suffer as badly as the west of Ireland).

Drink any Guinness yesterday Christmas? Arthur Guinness as Irish as they come, his grandson Sir Benjamin Lee Guinness had his hands on the tiller of the Guinness family fortune between 1839 and 1868.

"By 1855 Guinness had become the richest man in Ireland having built up a huge export trade and by continually enlarging his brewery"

Hey Christmas – what are the ingredients for making porter? What were the ingredients required in the years 1845 to 1851? All the British Governments fault eh?

"Woodham-Smith described other types of exploitation - that of relief supplies being purchased by English and Irish merchants, deliberately shipped back and forth across the Irish Sea up to four times before they were unloaded, in order to manipulate the selling prices upward; prolonging the already extreme shortages - part of the 'free trade' that the Russell administration had pledged itself to."

And the activities of those English and Irish merchants being legal could be prevented by the British Government how?

"Britain not only did nothing, but it manipulated that 'nothing' in order to gain political and economic capital out of the 'Great Famine'."

I would just love to hear what gains in political and economic capital for Britain came out of the "Great Famine" – Damn all as far as I can fathom. It did I suppose leave us with a legacy of a seemingly interminable list of whinging Irish Ballads and a host of complete and utter myths and fairy stories that you appear to have fallen for hook line and sinker.