1: »Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts"
I could not agree more sciencegeek and so far not one single fact provided indicates that there was ever any deliberate intent or plan on the part of the British Government to carry out a campaign of genocide in Ireland between 1845 and 1851. Now the fact that they could have handled things far better is not in doubt, but there was no deliberate campaign. On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin, Commissary-General who between January 1846 and March 1848 directed that new built steam powered naval ships be used to distribute relief supplies on the West coasts of Ireland and Scotland, he specified those ships as they would not be dependent upon prevailing winds to successfully complete their voyages – Again hardly falls in with the line about a deliberate campaign of genocide does it?

2: "However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else "

Ever looked up Tim Pat Coogan on Google?

"Timothy Patrick "Tim Pat" Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987."

So being perfectly logical and using your own criteria, if Sir Max Hastings cannot be described as a Historian because he was just a journalist, then neither can Tim Pat Coogan – True? Or as usual do you simply let your own bigotry take over, in order that you can just make stuff up as you go along?

By the way a historical writer is a different animal to a historian, I leave it to you to research the difference.

Now let us take a look at Sir Max Hastings:

"Sir Max Hugh Macdonald Hastings, FRSL, FRHistS (born 28 December 1945) is a British journalist, editor, historian and author."

The FRSL = Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature
The FRHistS = Fellow of the Royal Historical Society

So critically acclaimed by professional bodies in the fields of literature and history to the degree that he is welcomed into their most prestigious societies ( I would have thought that counted for something GBS was a FRSL IIRC)

Hastings in his time has supported both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party and has voted accordingly. He also is on record as having described Gordon Brown as "wholly psychologically unfit to be Prime Minister" – so no-one can fault the man's judgement or instincts .

3: As far as reading books go the work I have constantly referred to, which I have read and studied, has been the one that is generally regarded as the Definitive work on the Famine of 1845 to 1849 and that is Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger" and as I have previously stated on this thread she does not spare the British Government, but does give credit where it is due (Unlike yourself) and she provides no argument to suggest any deliberate campaign on the part of the British Government – no policy of Genocide.

4: As far as numbers went mg there were, and there are, records kept by both Shipping companies and port authorities of people landing, they are available on line for anyone wishing to look them up ("The Irish Times" has a particularly good one listing some 225 vessels that sailed between 1845 and 1851). It was a business mg and businesses run on paper.

You mentioned the Germans, as did I, the account you refer to, may well be correct, but it does not alter the fact discovered by Joel Mokyr during his research that more Germans died whilst on passage.

"1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851;

He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labour and the insufficient formation of physical capital -- results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions.

Irish history is often heavily coloured by political convictions: Mokyr brings to this controversial field not only wide research experience but also impartiality and scientific objectivity. The book is primarily aimed at numerate economic historians, historical demographers, economists specializing in agricultural economics and economic development and specialists in Irish and British nineteenth-century history."


Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing.

On the mainland of the United Kingdom the West Coast of Scotland and the Highlands were particularly badly hit – yet the Scots do not accuse the British Government of any act of genocide.

In the closing years of the 17th century and the early years of the 18th century Scotland lost approximately 20% of its population to famine. It was one of the driving arguments for the Act of Union in 1707.

In the aftermath of the 45 Rebellion clearances that had started in the 17th century were accelerated, but the big difference here was that although land-owners wanted their former clansmen off the land they wanted them housed in new towns and villages that they had built (Helmsdale in Sutherland is one example of such a town) to work in cottage industries, fishing, kelping and in mines. Those dispossessed on the other had wanted to move further afield and this was the subject and inspiration of Burn's poem "Address of Beelzebub" written in 1786 and this is the foreword and introduction to it:

"To the Right Honourable the Earl of Breadalbane, President of the Right Honourable and Honourable the Highland Society, which met on the 23rd of May last at the Shakespeare, Covent Garden, to concert ways and means to frustrate the designs of five hundred Highlanders, who, as the Society were informed by Mr. M'Kenzie of Applecross, were so audacious as to attempt an escape from their lawful lords and masters whose property they were, by emigrating from the lands of Mr. Macdonald of Glengary to the wilds of Canada, in search of that fantastic thing-Liberty."

The Scottish Famines of 1690s and 1780 caused great loss of life, the Highland famine of 1846 to 1852 resulted in fewer deaths but caused over 1.7 million people to leave Scotland.

" Famine was a real prospect throughout the period, and certainly it was one of severe malnutrition, serious disease, crippling financial hardship and traumatic disruption to essentially agrarian communities. The causes of the crisis were similar to those of the Great Irish Famine and both famines were part of the wider food crisis facing Northern Europe caused by potato blight during the mid-1840s." - General summation given in Wiki, Highland Potato Famine