Joe: "I just don't buy this idea of "brainwashing"

Jim: Jesuit maxim
"Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
The brainwashing of someone who has no choice - a child

Well, gee, Jim, I always thought it meant that if you instill a love of learning in a child before the age of seven, he/she will have a lifelong love of learning.

I just haven't come across all these "brainwashed" people you people talk about. Maybe you're watching too many zombie movies, or something (or maybe Dawkins movies - same thing ;-)).

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Musket says: And until they stop being misogynist and homophobic, they are to be dismissed and ignored in totality by respectable citizens.

Ah, but Musket, not all religious people are misogynist or homophobic. I'm a religious person, you know; and I and most religious people I respect, share your disdain for misogynists and homophobes. How does that fit into your equation?

And Musket sez: Your simplistic condemnation of rational thought is nearer the doctrine of your black hooded priests than that of a decent chap who claims to question doctrine.
Damn! And all this time I thought I've been a big fan of rational thought! Please point out this "simplistic condemnation" of mine.

Richard Bridge says" The alliance between the roman catholic church and the Irish state has been a terrible, terrible source of oppression. I think I could agree with that. And, as somebody says above, the same is true for Poland. There's bound to be trouble any time the vast majority of citizens in a nation belongs to the same religious group. Religious people are much better-behaved when they're the minority.

CS says: Any serious institutional crime, and especially one that is within the living memory of those who may have suffered from it, is worthy of pursuing in court.

I believe that atonement for great acts of evil, is a cathartic - psychological and even spiritual - necessity for both the individual victims and the collective victims (ie: society as a whole) of those corrupt and powerful organisations that perpetrated them with impunity. I think that is a very wise statement, and worth repeating.

Stu says: Here's the fundamental problem with discussing anything with religious people; their default position is EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them is wrong, otherwise they would have to accept their faith might be misplaced . . . and that would imply the possibility of God not existing, something they incapable of accepting if they are true believers.
I would suggest the reason for the rejection of established, instutionalised religion is philosophical as well as ideological, and depend on whether one believes the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions regardless, and whether in time we are capable of understanding that past actions have consequences to this day. Stu, what you and Musket don't seem to comprehend, is that a vast number of religious people don't think in the way you describe. Every day, I acknowledge the possibility that God doesn't exist - that keeps me honest. I think that everyone who doesn't agree with me, has a perspective different from mine - and it may well be that both of us are right. Oh, and did you know that "the individual is ultimately responsible and answerable for their own actions" is the underlying principle of all Catholic moral teaching?

I happen to agree with most of the things that most of the people have said above. What I cannot agree with, are the blanket statements, the constant insistence that all religion is the same, that religious instruction or any instruction by religious people on any subject is "brainwashing," or that there is something inherently evil in all religion and that the day must come soon when all religion is abolished.

As in all of these Mudcat religious discussions, religion ends up being defined in very narrow, fundamentalist terms as some kind of mind control. People go on and on and on about the bad things that happen in churches - and most of these are true and are indeed deplorable. I see deplorable things happen in churches a lot more often than I'd like to - but I also know the other side. My experience in the Catholic Church is about 90 percent good and ten percent bad, which I don't think is a bad balance. I feel a great obligation to oppose that ten percent with all my power, and I do my best. I certainly don't deny all those bad things, and I don't defend them.

In 16 years of Catholic education (including 8 years of seminary), I did not experience anything like the horror stories so often conveyed here. I think I got an excellent education and that I learned to think for myself early on - and most of the Catholic-educated people I know, are the same. This accusation of "brainwashing" seems preposterous to me.

So, when you make your blanket statements, be careful. There's a damn good chance that many religious groups and many religious people are not as you describe. They may be as rational and intelligent and tolerant as you are - maybe more so.

As I said above, open your friggin' eyes.

-Joe Offer-