"We still have a long way to go to find easy ways to be understood in this medium, hmm?"

Theirs lies the crux methinks. I'm not the best at articulating my thoughts in words sometimes. As for the humour, I think you're reading way too much into it, although I think there could be a cultural difference in the way we debate. There's a lot of self-deprecation in British humour, and we're all iconoclasts at heart, apart from Tories (thank god).

One thing I would say is we are loosing our manners here in the UK. One reason I love the US so much is the people are so polite most of the time.This comes as a shock to a cynical old Brit at first, but it soon becomes a pleasure, especially in the smaller towns out in the country.

Thinking about the pint thing, I'm not sure one of those two wasn't a UK catter actually, and the other guy I'd have a pint with after all. Life's too short.

"Bill is the best there is. I'll vouch for him."

Joe, I'm not calling Bill's character into question at all, in fact I think he's got a degree of tolerance I perhaps haven't. I'm calling into question his desire to castigate me for being offended, which itself implies a certain judgement of character, something I apparently should not do to Pete, despite who-knows-how-many posts trying to get him to actually get his information from elsewhere. The Schweitzer posts above are a case in point, and I've been through this in detail with him before, but my motives are questionable, obviously. Mary Schweitzer is a brilliant scientist and deeply committed Christian too, apparently.

The saddest part of this is the fact that people like you guys (Bill and Joe) and myself are even having this discussion. I think we are pursue the same ends, albeit by different paths. We seek the truth, and that is what is important, and we seek it on a fundamental level. I would suggest I'm no less spiritual than you Joe, even though it manifests itself in a different way. My moral foundations are born of a philosophy of science but are still solid, compassionate and inclusive.

This is where the dialogue between science and religion should be, and no doubt our differences are profound, but our basic humanity gives us ample common ground to explore.