The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #150703   Message #3646870
Posted By: Jim Carroll
31-Jul-14 - 03:23 AM
Thread Name: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
His statement that Israeli Zionism was in danger of creating Fascist State was exactly what people have been using to defend Israeli state terrorism by describing opposition to it as Antisemitism.
Israel's own report on Sabra/Shatila found itself indirectly responsible, as similar Israeli enquiries will find the present atrocities well withing international law, no doubt!
The independent Redmond enquiry found otherwise, but Israel avoided prosecution through political and economic clout and influence.
The matter has never been resolved, but later information has not only established its role, particularly in providing transport, access, weapons and illumination to allow the killing to continue uninterrupted for three days and in giving assistance in the form of equipment to bury the bodies ad build a stadium over the mass graves - none of these facts are disputable.
You are, of course, right about my confusion between Begin and Sharon - my apologies; though both Begin and Sharon played a part in the massacre.
"The Kahan Commission found that Ariel Sharon "bears personal responsibility",[16]
"At first, Sharon refused to resign, and Begin refused to fire him. It was only after the death of Emil Grunzweig after a grenade was tossed into the dispersing crowd of a Peace Now protest march, which also injured ten others, that a compromise was reached: Sharon would resign as Defense Minister, but remain in the Cabinet as a minister without portfolio. Notwithstanding the dissuading conclusions of the Kahan report, Sharon would later become Prime Minister of Israel"
"That claim makes you seem foolish."
'Course it does John
Does the same apply to Noam Chomski, the ex heads of Mossad, the Israeli soldiers organisation, and all the Israelis using similar terms and adding 'ethic cleansing' and Apartheid' state to their criticism of State behaviour?
Mike - so if I have you right - it's OK for Jews to compare the behaviour of the Israelis to that of the Nazis, but it's Antisemitic for non Jews to do the same, no matter what their feelings for and involvement with the Jewish people might be.
Is that part of the definition or just your own particular refinement- just curious?
I assume your criticism of Israel isn't going to move beyond fruit trees and cameras - are we ever going to know whether you share at our disgust over the massacres which are now taking place?
"terror tunnels designed to murder and kidnap Israelis and store weapons"
The tunnels were designed for no such reason, they were built to transport essential good that were forbidden by the blockade; many of them became profitable enterprises for those on both sides of the border.   
From a National Geographic article:
"After Israel introduced the blockade, smuggling became Gaza's alternative. Through the tunnels under Rafah came everything from building materials and food to medicine and clothing, from fuel and computers to livestock and cars. Hamas smuggled in weapons. New tunnels were dug by the day—by the hour, it seemed—and new fortunes minted. Families sold their possessions to buy in. Some 15,000 people worked in and around the tunnels at their peak, and they provided ancillary work for tens of thousands more, from engineers and truck drivers to shopkeepers. Today Gaza's underground economy accounts for two-thirds of consumer goods, and the tunnels are so common that Rafah features them in official brochures.
"We did not choose to use the tunnels," a government engineer told me. "But it was too hard for us to stand still during the siege and expect war and poverty." For many Gazans, the tunnels, lethal though they can be, symbolize better things: their native ingenuity, the memory and dream of mobility, and perhaps most significant for a population defined by dispossession, a sense of control over the land. The irony that control must be won by going beneath the land is not lost on Gazans."
Of course they will be used to smuggle weapons - there is a war happening at the present time - but the closure of the tunnels has been the long-term aim of the Israelis as part of the blockade in order to starve the Palestinians into accepting Israeli expansionist policy.
If the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, then so have the Palestinians, even more so considering the murderous one-sided slaughter happening at the present time.
Jim Carroll