Of course the greatest fallacy believed by many is that everybody can sing, sorry but the sad fact of life is that that is patently untrue. People who cannot hold a note should not sing and should not be encouraged to do so anywhere other than in their own homes and if they are considerate on their own. On that score I totally agree with GUEST,Howard Jones - Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:24 AM

Encouraging someone to sing in public, in a folk club setting at a "sing-around" or sing-along" is one thing, but if the product is dire then that has to be faced with honesty and dealt with - people in a public place (i.e. A Pub, be it function room, snug, lounge or public bar) will not come back if the standard is poor and the singing and/or playing is dire, you will not get "new-blood" in through the door. So in that I disagree totally with johncharles - Date: 20 Oct 14 - 12:30 PM when he says that applauding and encouraging low standards "Harms no-one" it does significant and long term harm as Jim Carroll has pointed out (Jim Carroll - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM) - Crap DOES indeed beget crap.

As far as crib sheets and folders stuffed full of lyrics go, there is no evidence at all that they serve as aids. To most, as has been pointed out in this thread by others, it stems from pure idleness, indicated by the fact that there is over weeks no signs of any improvement, even although the same songs are repeated, nothing seems to stick and the quality of rendition remains "crap" - If you do not know the song then don't bloody well sing it - sing along with it by all means but do not try to "lead" it or perform it solo, to do so is an insult to the company, and a dis-service to "your" club.

Totally agree with the sentiment expressed by GUEST,Shimrod - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM

Another point taken up by GUEST,Howard Jones - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:49 AM related to the level of skill of "young musicians":

"this is happening at a time when the performance standards and technical skills of those young musicians and singers who do put in the work are extraordinarily high."

How many of those extremely skillful "young musicians" are studying their art on a university course? Where oddly enough, your performances throughout your course are critically examined and commented on, and you do have to constantly practice, show improvement and where you are not allowed to "perform" (i.e. play in front of anyone) until you have reached a certain standard.

To Jack Campin who remarked on this in his post of 21st October - 11:58 AM - If the older people you are referring to are the "crib sheet entertainers" only interested in satisfying their own need to "perform" then as they cannot be bothered to learn from their "crib sheets", how the hell can you expect them to learn from these budding and blossoming "young musicians"?

Totally disagree with Jack Campin - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:58 AM when he implies that the majority of those who sing from memory only have a limited repertoire - that accusation is more likely to be leveled at the "singer/songwriter", a number of whom who take an arrogant pride in ONLY singing their compositions and find that most of their output is not really all that well received and then have to trot out their own "ten greatest hits" time and time again - they then complain about difficulty in getting bookings in clubs and festivals - primarily because of their own self-restricted repertoire that everyone has heard time and time again - very boring.

From GUEST,ST - Date: 21 Oct 14 - 12:19 PM we got the following which raised a fairly important point:

"If it's concerned with the songs, good standards, people having learned songs before they try to perform them and people constantly trying to improve their performance then some will be excluded in some way. They may simply feel left out or, if the singaround has an MC, they may not get asked to sing, or given fewer spots. I think that's fair enough, I wouldn't expect to go to a blues club or a jazz club and expect to be asked to perform."

The point being that if you would, as an amateur, pay that respect and acknowledge your own limitations with respect to a "Blues" or "Jazz" club then why not a "Folk Club"?