OK then Christmas shall we review what has been said

Jim Carroll - 21 Nov 14 - 09:48 AM

"the Kitchener cock-up, forcing him to resign.....

Now then oh great one with such a grip on reality that appears to be a fairly definite statement (Untrue, incorrect, false, but so definite you chose not to further elaborate on it) that prompted my fairly reasonable question (That I had to ask you how many times Christmas??):

Teribus - 21 Nov 14 - 09:59 AM

"Tell us again what was the date when Kitchener was forced to resign again."

Admittedly you ducked it for as long as you could and felt that after I had complied with your you go first demand you were honour bound to answer my question we got:

Jim Carroll - 22 Nov 14 - 04:27 AM

"Kitchener was regarded as an embarrassment by the establishment and was forced to tender his resignation after the arms supply fiasco at the beginning of 1916 - the fact that the Government felt that it would be too much of a setback to accept that resignation out of the further embarrassment that would have caused is beside the point - he offered his resignation."

Now then Christmas that little quote from your post is rather interesting and here are a few points I'd like to raise regarding just pure commonsense and logic:

1: Note the change? "Forced to Resign" has now been changed to "forced to tender his resignation" - Bit of a difference there isn't there?

2: Kitchener was NOT forced to resign - In fact he did not resign at all did he?

He was appointed as Secretary of State for War an appointment he held from 5th August 1914 (The Day after war had been declared Christmas)

He remained in the position of Secretary of State for War until the 5th June 1916 (The day he died Christmas)

3: So do you really contend that the establishment forced him to tender his resignation, yet in the same breath you state that that same establishment felt that they could not possibly allow him to resign in order to save themselves embarrassment? Are you totally f**kin crazy?? Sorry Christmas old son that simply does not wash - it makes absolutely no sense at all - but then on historical matters you very seldom ever make any sense at all - something to do with your inability to grasp detail and your complete and utter failure to recognise the importance of it.

But having now traveled all round the houses we have now reached the stage where we can say conclusively that at no point at all was Kitchener EVER FORCED TO RESIGN, he was never ever even forced by anyone to tender his resignation - on the other hand I do believe that on numerous occasions between August 1914 and June 1916 that he, Kitchener himself threatened to resign but no-one in the Cabinet or in the Government was ever even remotely going to seriously consider allowing him to do it.

"Cabinet Secretary Maurice Hankey wrote of Kitchener:

The great outstanding fact is that within eighteen months of the outbreak of the war, when he had found a people reliant on sea-power, and essentially non-military in their outlook, he had conceived and brought into being, completely equipped in every way, a national army capable of holding its own against the armies of the greatest military Power the world had ever seen."

Just the sort of man you would force to resign at the height of a major war eh Christmas - I know you would because you are an idiot.

"On 2 June 1916, Lord Kitchener personally answered questions asked by politicians about his running of the war effort

He received a resounding vote of thanks from the 200 Members of Parliament who had arrived to question him, both for his candour and for his efforts to keep the troops armed; Sir Ivor Herbert, who, a week before, had introduced the failed vote of censure in the House of Commons against Kitchener's running of the War Department, personally seconded the motion."

So who was it again who "forced him to tender his resignation" Christmas??


Some other things that you may or may not have known about Kitchener Christmas:

From the outset of hostilities he never believed that it would be a short, sharp war - No "Over by Christmas" crap from Kitchener.

From the outset of hostilities Kitchener believed that the War in Europe would last between three and four years and that to fight it Great Britain, for the first time ever in it's entire existence, would have to raise an Army of millions - Sounds as though he was pretty much on the money there doesn't it Christmas. Oddly enough the British Commander of ISAF out in Afghanistan in 2006/2007 Sir David Richards made equally accurate predictions about Afghanistan in February 2007 - as he handed over to US General "Bomber" McNeill. But back to Kitchener Christmas, how did he know? What had he based his predictions on? He'd fought the Boer War - and here's you and Musket and the like telling us all that the British Army Command was too thick and incompetent to learn lessons - the truth, however, was exactly the opposite though wasn't it - they were about the only combatant power fighting the Great War THAT DID LEARN LESSONS and adapt to changing circumstance and the realities of what unfolded accordingly - one of the reasons we won, old son - a fact you cannot argue with.