The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #105376 Message #3688833
Posted By: Joe Offer
22-Feb-15 - 12:31 AM
Thread Name: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 04:24 AM
i only knew Ewan very slightly. But I always admired him. Even though I disagreed with him.
I can't help thinking you are perhaps a little too defensive Jim. I meet a fair few folkies who knew him. Many go silent when I speak of my admiration and gratitude for his and Peggy's encouragement.
I get the impression that he pissed off a fair few people - and I'm not sure why. in many ways, his achievements speak for themselves. To see how good the Radio Ballads were you only have to compare the modern homages.
perhaps its time the detractors spoke up. without you jumping down their throat.
what IS their beef?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 06:53 AM
Jim, I rarely get involved in this kind of thread. I have no personal knowledge of EM whatsoever, and very little knowledge of his accomplishments other than what I've read. His music and my music have never coincided. But I do think Al has a fair point about your reaction to mention of him.
You knew Ewan and Peggy as friends and mentors for 20 or more years and found them to be nothing but kind and considerate. Others on this thread attest to that kindness, courtesy, and to their professionalism, as well as Ewan's teaching and analytical skills. I can therefore understand your anger and distress at reading criticism of them on a forum like Mudcat.
However, all of us, from the highest to the lowest, are imperfect, and may show different sides of ourselves to other people - a point which you also acknowledge. It's obvious that EM pissed off some people, for whatever reason - personal and/or professional - during his lifetime, and that memories of him will vary. That's what you get with people of high profile and strong convictions. But it does his memory no service for you to constantly rise in defensive anger every time a negative attitude is displayed. It just provokes even more negativity - forums are like that - and, as Al says, just let his achievements be their own testimony, and ignore those you consider to be nay-sayers. You won't change attitudes.
Let me take, as an example, someone I did know and met with - and played with - on several occasions. Someone who you occasionally mention in a slightly denigrating way: Alex Campbell. Alex was a flawed man. He was a drunk, a brawler, a teller of tall stories, often disreputable, sometimes envious - and, yes, I've also heard the vomiting story, over and over again. But - he was also a great raconteur, a bewitching performer, huge fun and, at his best, kind and supportive. He was very kind to me on more than one occasion. A man of huge contradictions. I suppose I could rise up, in my turn, and become annoyed whenever negative stories of Alex get posted. But I don't, because my own memories of him are fond ones - and, more importantly, I accept that he was man of contradictions, flaws and all.
My take on it all would be, enjoy your memories of EM and accept that, given the way he was, others just may not agree.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 07:07 AM
Often I disagree with what Al says but he makes very good points in the post above this one (29 Jan 15 - 04:24 AM). Two centrally important figures to the development of the folk scene are having their centenary of their births celebrated at the moment - Bob Copper and Ewan MacColl. They shared a lot of qualities. Both have been great influences as singers, both wrote extensively in their different ways, both organised folk clubs. both were quite often feted at their appearances, both were inspirational folk song collectors who were able to build up trust and admiration from their informants.
Where is there discussion about the sort of person Bob Copper was on Mudcat and elsewhere? It does not exist.
Where is there discussion about the sort of person Ewan MacColl was on Mudcat and elsewhere? Well, it is still pretty frequent and ubiquitous.
Why is this? I met and had long conversations with both men, Bob much more frequently than Ewan but enough to know that as well as similarities, they had fundemental differences. Bob had enormous social skills and the ability to mix in any company. He was the publican of a popular social club for the majority of his life and I suppose skills learned professionally added to a naturally friendly disposition. I have been in his company when statements that were made were anathema to his own way of thinking were made and I have seen him smile and bite his lip. but I don't think I ever saw him or those in his company become socially uncomfortable.
Ewan, on the other hand was blunt, sometimes admirably so, sometimes in a way that caused offence. On occasions there could be a sense of tension in his company. He seemed to lack some elements of social awareness. He could seem to be a different person in different circumstances. At a dinner party in Hove, he had dominated the conversation for the 10 or so that were there and seemed unaware of a growing sense of resentment that this was causing until a well-known local character, an aging communist lesbian remarked, "Mr MacColl, do you have any conversation that is not about yourself?" which killed the atmosphere stone dead until it was rescued by Peggy.
With Bob, what you see was what you got; no discussion needed. Ewan was a much more complex character, charming and abrasive, admirable and aloof. Why else would so many written and spoken discussions have taken place trying to arrive at his correct place in folk music history and in the order of things?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 08:31 AM
I saw Alex Campbell at his peak and I saw him give a fabulous nights entertainment at a Folk Club, MacColl was also a very good performer, and Always in my experience presented his material well.he was the personification of professionalism when he was on on stage, off stage he could be boorish rude surly arrogant and also courteous and helpful
as for your remarks about Alex Campbell, well a well known travelling traditional singer did the same thing on one occasion at a club in london, so this was not anything that was unique to Alex or revival singers.
There is no vendetta, Just a desire to get a fair perspective, I do not agree with Shirleys comment about a pernicious influence on folk music[ his legacy of songs are superb and add immensely to the folk reperetoire] neither am I prepared to accept your opposite picture because I had my own experiences with him which were contradictory [some were bad, some good].
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 08:42 AM
"Where is there discussion about the sort of person Bob Copper"
Bob was a respected figure as a singer and tradition bearer throughout his public life, fully acknowledged as such by every one who ever mentioned his name.
His books are, as far as I am concerned, essential reading for anybody wishing to come to terms with the background of our folk songs
Despite the amount of work MacColl did, not just as a singer, but as a theoretician on singing who devoted a large amount of time and effort developing a comprehensive approach to the theory and practice of traditional singing, even thirty years after his death it is virtually impossible to discuss his work without having first clambering over the shit-mountain carefully erected by mean-minded folkies.
In three threads about MacColl, the highest point reached seems to have been that MacColl once wrote a satirical song (half a century ago) about an entrepreneur of questionable repute who wanted to make the folk song movement part of the pop industry.
Some of the 'tributes' to MacColl to 'celebrate' his hundredth are scattered with small-minded snideswipes such as Ewan and Peggy "crowning themselves king and queen of the folk song movement".
If Robert Zimmermann received a minute fraction of the stick MacColl still receives thirty years after his death for changing his name, Bob Dylan would have been forgotten decades ago.
Small-minded begrudgery has prevented serious discussion on what I believe to be the most important body of work ever to have been carried out on the performance of folk song.
Personally, I have no interest in discussing MacColl as an individual - my memories of him are my memories and nothing is going to alter them very much.
When we conceived 'Freeborn Man' (Lyric FM programmes) we did so in order to discuss MacColl as a creative artist and his work with others - plenty of positive comments in the form of e-mails - harldy anything here.
"Mr MacColl, do you have any conversation that is not about yourself?"
Even Vic, whose contribution to the folk scene I admire, manages to throw in yet another MacColl yarn to prove what an arrogant bastard he was.
One of the points made by programme one was what a private person he was and how difficult it was to get him to talk about himself - Peggy made the point several times (she might be lying, of course).
That was my experience of him - he seldom spoke about himself as an individual.
His ideas on folk song were a different matter altogether, and that is what is missing from all these discussion.
"What did Jimmy Miller do in the war" seems to be the high point of most discussions about MacColl, which I find both sad and extremely frustration, especially considering the state of the revival, with it's Singa-longa Max, it's "near enough for folk" and it crib-sheet set of values.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 10:52 AM
"In three threads about MacColl, the highest point reached seems to have been that MacColl once wrote a satirical song (half a century ago) about an entrepreneur of questionable repute who wanted to make the folk song movement part of the pop industry"
This Statement is inaccurate, there is plenty of praise for MacColl as a songwriter and as as a performer plus posts mentioning his courtesy
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 15 - 05:49 PM
In 1972, I met Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger in a pub in what I remember to have been in North London (I know that might be vague). They were performing upstairs in an informal setting--really it was a combination performance, singalong, and open mic night (without the mics). They could not have been more gracious. If anyone knows the name of this place I would be grateful.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: RTim - PM
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:15 PM
Jim - Don't get me wrong, I loved his singing and he was a great influence on me when I started to sing solo, but I wondered about some of his motives over the years?
Tim Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle - PM
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 09:00 AM
Well I've always thought ewan was a brilliant bloke, and you only had to chat to someone like Ian Campbell to gain an idea of the high regard he was held in, by those who knew him well.
I shouldn't worry too much about the negative anecdotes, Jim. His achievements speak for themselves. i can appreciate it might be hurtful - people who barely met him, like myself giving our three pennyworth. But its a bit like having met Elvis - people want to know about the experience. And I suppose some people spice up the stories to give them more impact. ( I mean seriously - a fight between Ewan and Davenport, neither of them looked as though they could make it twice round round the park, without taking a rest.)
I used to do a gig at a pub called The drill Hall Vaults in Salford. I introduced Dirty Old Town - saying it had been written about salford. Several people in the pub were quite surprised to hear that. Further amazement when I said I had met the chap who wrote it.
Thats the nature of fame and recognition - you can't really tell which way the firework will go off. At least Ewan never had one of his songs on a compilation cd called 'Complete Shit of the 80's' - which happened to one of my songs.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 10:54 AM
even thirty years after his death it is virtually impossible to discuss his work without having first clambering over the shit-mountain carefully erected by mean-minded folkies.
What I was trying to do in that post, Jim, and I what I believe others were also doing in theirs was to try to construct a balanced view of the man. The post calls for first-hand anecdotes and the variety of these in this thread are enough to suggest that we are dealing with a complex man. You write, "Personally, I have no interest in discussing MacColl as an individual," but those impressions are all valid in compiling an accurate picture, If we want to talk about a person's legacy than how they related to others is an important part of that.
Nowhere in this thread does anyone suggest that Ewan was anything but a truly creative artist with a wide range of abilities and that he was a remarkable songwriter. He continues to inspire very moving performances of his songs. Just have a look at this BBC video filmed a couple of days ago. Go 4 mins 10 secs into it and hear Norma Waterson singing The Moving On Song accompanied by Eliza and Martin. It is exquisite, a remarkable understated performance.
So there is a wide concurrence of opinion on his abilities as a songwriter but there is much less agreement on the importance of The Critics' Group. Certainly, there has been no attempts to emulate the group in the decades since it broke up though traditional song workshops have proliferated. Vic Gammon wrote "...ultimately the Critics Group became a blind alley." Shirley Collins said "His influence now? Things have opened up. Nobody has to listen to what other people are saying. People are going their own way. That's the way it should be." When I was interviewing a prominent ex-member of the group I started on a question about the group and I was interrupted with "Aaaarrgh! No more gurus!" On the other hand there are those who have found it an enduring life enhancing experience and clearly you are one of those.
This is not creating a shit-mountain, Jim, it is called seeking a rounded view. It is what a gathering of critics might do when discussing the importance of a prominent person but your comments seem to suggest that no balancing negative view is valid.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 11:17 AM
hmm,,,,,,
its funny having your words set down before you, i certainly didn't think they would be preserved for posterity....still.
i will try and explain my thoughts, which = please believe me Jim are not fuelled by malice, just curiosity.
I love attending Alan Bell's seminars on songwriting. i think he's a good songwriter, and you gain from every minute spent in his presence.
At the start of the seminar - we all had to talk about ourselves and our experiences of songwriting.
when it came to my turn , i explained that Ewan and Peggy had been the very first people to validate my ambitions with kindness, encouragement and by publishing one very early effort.
Alan looked at me thoughtfully and said, well if that was your experience of the man - that is how you must tell it...
you just felt he could have said a ton. just a feeling....
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 11:21 AM
No rounded view Vic - unless you can point me to where MacColl's work has been discussed - here or anywhere
Plenty of lip service and even more spiteful stories, to which you have just added
One of the last things that MacColl or the Critics group ever advocated was "emulation" - far too much of that already with the Carthy clones and the Joanie soundalikes
Goes to show just how much MaColl's ideas have been considered that you can suggest that this was one of his intentions.
"No more Gurus"
The Critics Group broke up somewhat acrimoniously and many (not all) of the views expressed after the break-up reflect that acrimony
Very different from the attitude of the members right up to the break-up as can be heard on the recordings of the meeting
There were no bars on the windows of 35 Stanley Avenue so they could have left at any time - I seem to remember that the member you quoted was one of the first to join and the last to leave.
Shit mountain it is, as far as I'm concerned, as sadly, you've just added another strata.
Can't respond to your clip - the Beeb doesn't allow us to listen to their output over here.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 12:05 PM
Warning. Jim do not read this it is in response to Good Soldier Schweik.
Dick I don't know when you first met Ewan but he seemed to be quite fit and able to me back around 1960. I once saw Ewan and Dominic Behan get into during a club session at the Ballads and Blues Club at the Horse Shoes in Tottenham Court Road. Dominic had cast aspersions at Alan Lomax's collecting methods in Ireland and Ewan didn't like that. They had to be seperated by club organiser Malcolm Nixon. So the story which you find hard to believe could well be true.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 12:09 PM
"No rounded view Vic - unless you can point me to where MacColl's work has been discussed - here or anywhere"
it has been discussed on this thread, go back and read. I discussed his song writing comparing him to Guthrie, MENTIONING HIS FINE WORK ON THE RADIO BALLADS.for god sake get rid of the chip on your shoulder.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 01:01 PM
"Warning. Jim do not read this it is in response to Good Soldier Schweik."
Why on earth should I not read it - I'm quite aware of the story?
I'm also ware of the story of Bob Davenport wrecking Ewan and Bert's attempts to bring some sort of Unity to the revival, which you chose ot to respond to.
Mind you - I do tend to give anything to do with Dick as wide a berth as possible of late - perhaps that's what you meant?
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 01:30 PM
Hooteannany, I do not know what you are taking about, when have i made a comment about finding a a story hard to be true, i think you are confusing me with someone else.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Jerome Clark
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 01:47 PM
As one who has no skin in this game, I've followed this sometimes overheated thread with interest. As an American I know of MacColl only from reading about him and listening his songs over the years. Many of those songs are, as nearly everybody would agree, brilliantly constructed and profoundly moving, though I hope never to hear "The Ballad of Joe Stalin."
Clearly, as is the case with those possessed of strong personalities, experiences with such individuals may differ radically from one encounterer to the next. From one perspective the personalities of artists are worth discussing because those personalities are integral to who they were as artists. That's why biographies, intended for those who care more than passingly, are as much about the person as the art he or she created.
In that regard some of the private sins of Woody Guthrie, as documented in Ed Cray's 2004 biography, are surely graver than MacColl's personal idiosyncrasies. It's true that a hideous disease was eating at Guthrie's brain, affecting his behavior in occasionally appalling fashion. Even so, I recall putting down Cray's book with a feeling of great disquiet which it took me awhile to sort out. For a while I wondered if I'd be able to listen to Guthrie again.
Then finally, the obvious -- always slow to work its way through my cognitive faculties -- occurred to me: in the end it has to be about the songs. The rest is detail, however fascinating or illuminating or disturbing it may be to those who concerned about it. You don't have to know how a song could have come into the world in order to recognize its greatness. It doesn't please me to know that MacColl admired a monster, but that doesn't affect the awe I feel every time I hear "Shoals of Herring" or "The Terror Time" or any number of other MacColl creations.
Anyway, my view, worth exactly what you paid for it.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 29 Jan 15 - 02:04 PM
Jerome, exactly the point i made in an earlier post and i quotefrom my own earlier post, and i am still confused whyJim has to take exception to everything i say, here was the post one of several that praise Ewan
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Dick Miles - PM
Date: 27 Jan 15 - 01:33 PM
Jim, you should re read my posts.
n my opinion, Ewan was correct about trying to present his material well, I am not sure it is fair to describe his effect on Folk Music as pernicious, after all his songs and songwriting have added positively to the folk repertoire, even if his attempts to mould and help singers stylistically is open to criticism.
"I do admire MacColls professional approach to presentation,I see nothing wrong with presenting an act in a professional style, perhaps Ewan was not a very good actor, a good actor can vary their interpretation every time, he was an excellent songwriter, and I think his songs will live on, and his legacy will be the songs he has written."
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 31 Jan 15 - 01:31 PM
I am sure Ewan had the best of intentions when he was trying to help singers improve, and on the technical side and as regards improving technique I think he achieved this, so there were positives as well as negatives as regards the mettings of the Critics group.
I am guessing it was Ewan and Peggys influence that guided Luke Kelly towards certain repertoire, and in my opinion Luke Kelly was the quality singer with the Dubliners and introduced the most interesting songs to the Dubliners repertoire., maybe a spin off of Ewan and Peggys influence.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 31 Jan 15 - 04:24 PM
To GSS
Dick my apologies, looking at your posting again I see that you were probably quoting somebody else?
Anyway whoever it was I just wanted to point out that Ewan didn't appear to be incapable of getting it on when he felt like it.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 31 Jan 15 - 08:54 PM
yes, when he felt like it.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 12:47 AM
I've posted on parts of the information contained in this article before. The little Hamlet on the top of Werneth Low, Hyde is country living far removed from the sort of life most would associate with Ewan. Itakes reference to why he adopted his Scots name and his discharge from the Army.
By Derek Pattison
Salford born folk singer and song- writer Ewan MacColl is remembered today more for his music than his agit-prop plays. But it was his political activities before the last war and his membership of the Communist Party that led to MI5 opening a file on him in the 1930s and why they kept him, and his friends, under close surveillance.
Secret service papers released by the national archives, now in Ashton-under-Lyne central library, offer a clue into how British intelligence (MI5) spied on working-class folk singer Ewan MacColl and his wife playwright, Joan Littlewood, who lived at Oak Cottage on Higham Lane, Hyde, Cheshire, during World War II.
MI5 opened a file on James Henry Miller (MacColl's real name) in the early 1930s when he was living in Salford. As an active Communist Party member, he had been involved in the unemployed workers' campaigns and in the mass trespass of Kinder Scout in Derbyshire. Before enlisting in the army in July 1940, he had written for the radio programme Children's Hour.
In Joan Littlewood's autobiography, she writes: "Jimmie was registered at the Labour Exchange as a motor mechanic, but he did better busking, singing Hebridean songs to cinema queues. Someone drew Archie Harding's attention to him and from that time on he appeared in the North Region's features (BBC) whenever a 'proletarian' voice was needed."
As a BBC presenter for Children's Hour and Communist Party member, Littlewood also came under the watch of MI5. A letter in the file, marked 'SECRET' (dated March 1939) and sent to W.H. Smith Esq., the Chief Constable for Hyde, tells him that Miller – known to the writer to be a Communist Party member – had taken a house in Hyde. The letter informs him that Miller works for the BBC in Manchester and that his wife, Joan Miller – another communist – broadcasts under the name 'Joan Littlewood' and is "said to be 'Aunty Muriel' of Children's Hour." The writer Sir Vernon Kell ended by asking the Chief Constable for Miller's address and asked if Miller followed any other profession other than broadcasting.
Colonel Sir Vernon Kell, also known as 'K', was the head of MI5. An officer of the old school, Kell had served in China at the time of the Boxer Rebellion in 1900 and was appointed first director of MI5 in 1909.
'Communist looking Jews'
Writing about the spy Kim Philby, Seale & McConville say that Kell was the 'antithesis of the terror-wielding secret police chief of public imagination'. As a public servant, he was renowned for his sense of duty, tact and discretion and 'used his wide powers with notable restraint.' By all accounts, MI5 in 1940 was an antiquated organisation led by middle-aged men who, while adept at keeping so-called subversives under surveillance, had little understanding of the ideas that motivated communists of Philby's generation.
At the outbreak of World War II, it seems that under Kell's leadership, MI5 was unable to cope with the mass of information about German agents in Britain and the 'spy-mania' that was a feature of British life at the time. Consequently, Kell was retired by Winston Churchill in 1941.
A letter in the file concerning Joan Littlewood is signed Major Maxwell Knight. Charles Maxwell Knight held right-wing views and after his Royal Navy service he worked for the Economic League. In 1924, he joined the British Fascisti, an organisation set up to counter the power of the Labour Party and the Trade Unions. This body put him in charge of compiling dossiers on 'political subversives', counter espionage, and establishing fascist cells in the trade union movement. In 1925, Kell recruited Knight to work for MI5.
A report in the file by Inspector J.E. Robinson, also marked 'SECRET' and dated April 1939' tells the Chief Constable of Hyde that Miller lives with his parents and wife at Oak Cottage. Explaining that the BBC does not permanently employ Miller, the Inspector adds:
"He (Miller) does not appear to follow any fixed occupation beyond writing articles for such periodicals as may care to publish them. I understand that such publications are rare."
He concludes by saying Miller and Littlewood seem to have no known association with communists in Hyde, but "at weekends, and more particularly when Miller's parents are away from home, a number of young men who have the appearance of communist Jews are known to visit Oak Cottage. It is thought they come from Manchester.
In September 1939 there is more correspondence between Kell and the Chief Constables of Hyde, Ashton-under-Lyne and Cheshire. It seems Miller and other communist suspects had got work at Messrs Kenyon Ltd in Dukinfield.
Writing to the Hyde Chief Constable, Kell asks about William Redmond Morres Belcher – a worker at Kenyon's – who, he says, has fought in Spain in the International Brigades. Admitting that he has no proof that Belcher is a Communist Party member, he adds: "his sympathies are very much to the left." Naming three more workers at Kenyon's: W.Sharples, R.C.Dyson and Miss B. Nash, he again admits he has no proof they are communists, but "Sharples may be identical with a man of that name who visited the USSR in August 1932." The Chief Constable is asked to "make some inquiries…and let me know what you discover."
The employment of Miller and his associates at Kenyon's in Dukinfield did cause MI5 some anxiety as the firm had government contracts. It was feared the group might foment industrial unrest and in a letter dated September 1939, to Major J. Becke, Chief Constable of Cheshire, Colonel Kell wrote:
"I agree with you that the employment of these men at Messrs Kenyon's appears to be most unusual and would be grateful if you would let me have any further information which may come to your knowledge."
Special Branch Surveillance
Belcher, a mechanical engineer, had been employed to fit blinds to comply with government lighting restrictions. He then used his influence to get jobs for his friends without consulting the Directors. A memo dated September 1939, says:
"Messrs Kenyon's are anxious as to whether Belcher and his associates have any connection with the IRA. I told him (Percy Kenyon), I was unable to give him any information as regards that."
A Special Branch agent report, dated October 1939, to the Hyde Chief Constable, says that Belcher, his wife Aileen, Robert Dyson, William Sharples and Miss Beryl Nash, had all been resident at Oak Cottage while that house was under surveillance.
This report says they were all active Communist Party members and members of the 'Theatre Union, an agitprop drama group that toured industrial areas of Britain'. This agent says:
"I have been able to listen to their conversations during the evening at Oak Cottage but I have not heard anything regarding communism or other political views."
He informs the Chief Constable that Miller is a communist "with very extreme views and I think that special attention should be given to him."
Apart from surveillance of this kind by Special Branch agents, the file has details of telephone taps and of intercepted letters. A memo, dated September 1943, to Colonel Allan of the GPO states: "Would you kindly let me have a return of correspondence for the next two weeks on the following address – Oak Cottage, Higham Lane, Hyde, Cheshire."
Other memos show that bodies such as the Central National Registration Office and Passport Office were supplying information to MI5. Frequently, people who knew Miller and Littlewood, were contacted directly by the police or vice versa.
Alison Bayley, who'd been at RADA (drama school) with Littlewood, stopped Littlewood in the street one day and asked her if she'd time for a coffee. Littlewood describes this meeting in her autobiography: "I hadn't seen her since joining 'Theatre of Action'. 'Old times Chat?' I asked." Alison Bayley then told Littlewood: "I've denounced you to the Police. About you being a communist." Though Littlewood assured her that the police already knew she was a Communist Party member, Bayley told her: "I felt I had to tell them, Littlewood."
Blacklisted by the BBC
One irate middle-class father from Withington wrote to the police in May 1940, demanding that the Millers be sacked from the BBC and interned. His 18-year-old son (Graham Banks) a "fine specimen of English boyhood with good morals and ideals and a brilliant future" had, he explained, fallen into the clutches of the Millers who had induced him to leave home. Mr Banks added: "His poor mother is frantic with grief and if it should be within your province to either return him to us or else to intern him along with the others taking part in these pernicious plays, I hope you will do so."
MI5 intervention led to the BBC blacklisting Miller and Littlewood. Littlewood had already been banned from working in Sheffield because she'd broadcast criticism of local housing conditions. Other memos reveal links between MI5 agents and BBC staff. In a memo, dated October 1939, a MI5 officer says: "I do not understand why the BBC continues to use them. Could they be warned to drop them if other people are available?"
Another memo states: "We asked the BBC to hold them (the programme) up while we obtained this file and unfortunately their (the Millers') programme for the 11th October 1939 was about to be cancelled. Mr. Nicholls (Controller of Programmes), informed me that there was a possibility that the Manchester Guardian would publicise the matter and questions would be asked in the House of Commons. I said I would raise no objections to the broadcast of 11/10/39 but would get in touch with the BBC again."
Though the BBC had announced in March 1941 that persons who had taken part in public agitation against the war effort would not be allowed access to the microphone, the BBC stated:"Beyond this one limit the Corporation is jealous to preserve British broadcasting as an instrument of freedom and democracy."
The real reason for the ban on Miller and Littlewood is made clear in a memo dated April 1941 from Mr. Coatman, North Regional Director for the BBC. He points out that Mrs. Miller (Littlewood) and her husband were not only well known communists but were active communists. Mr. Coatman says:
"It must be remembered that Miss Littlewood and her husband were concerned chiefly with programmes in which they were brought into continuous and intimate contact with large numbers of working class people all over the North Region. Clearly I could not allow people like this to have use of the microphone or be prominently identified with the BBC. I therefore urge that the ban on Miss Littlewood as a broadcaster be allowed to stand."
In her autobiography, Joan Littlewood says that following the BBC ban, Miller and herself wrote to L.C. Knight of the National Council of Civil Liberties who promised to investigate but never contacted them again. She writes: "We offered our story to the newspapers they didn't publish it, not even the Daily Worker."
After being called up in July 1940, Private James H. Miller was placed on the 'Special Observation List' "to see whether he is trying to carry on propaganda." He was declared a deserter on 18th December 1940 and remained AWOL for the rest of the war. In this period he changed his name to Ewan MacColl. Military reports suggest he was popular with his fellow soldiers and exerted influence over them owing to his greater intelligence. He was a member of the Regimental Concert Party and produced 'several songs and skits'. One of his songs was a particular favourite with the men:
"The medical inspection boy's is just a bleedin' farce. He gropes around your penis and noses up your arse. For even a Private's privates, enjoy no privacy, you sacrifice all that to save democracy. Oh, I was browned off, browned off, as could be."
While the song was popular with the ordinary soldiers it seems the military top brass had their suspicions. A note in the file says the song was of the normal barrack room type and didn't appear to his CO to be subversive but "he is now inclined to think that it was rather subtle propaganda, the theme being generally disparaging to life as a private soldier and enlarging upon the fact that the discipline and alleged discomforts, to which he is subjected, although nominally in the cause of democracy, were really for the benefit of some supposedly superior class."
MI5 and Censorship
After the war, Miller was arrested for desertion. He spent the first night of his captivity in Middlesbrough police station and was then taken to an army detention barracks at Northallerton. Later he was transferred to the Northfield Military Hospital in Birmingham where he was diagnosed as suffering from epilepsy. A psychiatrist diagnosed him to have a 'paranoid personality with strong oedipal tendencies.' The result of his psychiatric report led to the cancellation of his court martial on medical grounds and he was discharged from the army.
In her autobiography 'Joan's Book', Littlewood speaks openly about being blacklisted by the BBC and about MacColl's (Miller's) desertion. She says he changed his name to MacColl 'as a precaution' while on the run as a deserter. However, none of this is mentioned in MacColl's autobiography (Journeyman), which contains many gaps and omissions about his life.
Both Littlewood and MacColl played a cat and mouse game with the authorities. They were certainly aware the police were reading their letters: "Jimmie wrote to me every day, mostly jokes and nostalgia. So were mine to him. It must have been disappointing for the police who were opening them all." They knew the police were keeping tabs on them, because so many of their friends and acquaintances were approached by the police.
Nothing can be found in the MI5 file to suggest Littlewood and MacColl were in the pay of Moscow (Nazi Germany and the USSR were allies from 1939 to June 1941). Yet a memo, dated April 1942, shows Littlewood had contact with Emile Burns, who was boss of propaganda at the Communist Party Headquarters in London.
Clearly, MI5 monitored their theatrical work and activities because they feared that as proselytising communists, their work could influence and politicise the working-classes. One of their plays, 'Last Edition', performed by the Theatre Union, was described as 'thinly veiled' communist propaganda' and MI5 boss Colonel Kell used his influence to urge local councils to refuse them performance licenses in the same way as MI5 prevented them working for the BBC.
Joan Littlewood died in September 2002, aged 87. She has been described as a 'subversive genius' who broke the mould of British drama. She was best known for her work 'Oh What a Lovely War' and for establishing, with others, the Theatre Workshop at the Theatre Royal in East London. Ewan MacColl died in 1989 aged 74. He is now remembered more as a songwriter than an agit-prop playwright. His songs include 'Dirty Old Town', the 'Manchester Rambler' and 'The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face' made famous by the singer Roberta Flack in the 1970s.
This article was originally published in Northern Voices issue 7, 2007
Related
Fascism and anti-fascism in 1930s Manchester
In "Anti-Fascism"
Ruth & Eddie Frow and the Working Class Movement Library
In "Communism"
Mary and Percy Higgins: Communists in Tameside
In "Anti-Nuclear"
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 01:20 AM
Thanks for that Stuart - fascinating reading
My father got one of tse when he came back from Spain (wounded) and was blacklisted from work as a 'premature anti-fascist.
"Ewan didn't appear to be incapable of getting it on when he felt like it." "yes, when he felt like it."
As did people like Bob Davenport when he wrecked MacColl and Lloyd's attempts to persuade the British folk clubs to work together, and John Brune, when he tried to wreck the first radio programme to ever give the Travellers a public voice, but we don't talk about those, do we?
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 05:03 AM
well to be fair Jim, Ewan is a lot bigger name. people want to know about artists - particularly young people who are finding their own way as artists and need to know about their role models.
certainly i wish i'd known more about my heroes and the prices they paid for their achievements.
i think i should have thought more carefully.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll on Stuart Cook's post
"Thanks for that Stuart - fascinating reading."
I'd like to second that but add 'very frightening' to the 'fascinating'. One sentence did give me a good laugh though:-
A psychiatrist diagnosed him to have a 'paranoid personality with strong oedipal tendencies.'
The shrink must either have been looking for a way of getting MacColl out of a very difficult situation or have been suffering from a serious personality disorder himself.
.... and why frightening? Well how about Littlewood had already been banned from working in Sheffield because she'd broadcast criticism of local housing conditions. for starters.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 06:45 AM
Jim,
"but we don't talk about those do we". The subject of the original post was Ewan MacColl. First hand trivial anecdotes.
I didn't know John Brune. I have seen Bob Davenport several times over many years and usually enjoyed his singing. I don't have any trivial anecdotes about them that would be relevant to a thread on Ewan.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 07:12 AM
Vic. Frightening because the Northern Voices piece piece shows just how little the security authorities understand the people they are supposed to be surveilling. I won't go into the details here, but I too have been the victim of the same kind of Policeman Plod thinking.
BTW, I was tickled by the piece about "One irate middle-class father from Withington wrote to the police in May 1940, demanding that the Millers be sacked from the BBC". It's not of the same order by any means, but I once worked as a butcher's delivery boy, and one of the houses I used to deliver to belonged to a frightful old harridan from the days when the lower orders were expected to know their places in life and where their forelocks were.
The first time I called she kicked up an unbelievable fuss about the fact that I had knocked at the front door, rather than using the tradesman's entrance. "Go round the back in future."
The following week I delivered a parcel of offal for her dog and, being me, deliberately 'forgot' to use the tradesman's entrance. That set her off again, but not as much as the fact that I'd delivered the parcel of offal she'd ordered. "I don't want them. I've been told that they're bad for dogs, so you can just take them back."
She came into the shop a few days later, complaining to the manager. "That new delivery boy you've got. I want him sacked." When the manager asked why she replied, "He's surly."
Hey ho. No wonder I love the radio ballads.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 01 Feb 15 - 08:43 AM
well. yes, you do talk about John Brune , jim and YOU regularly mention bob davenport, on several occasions on this forum I have been trying to be positive about Ewan and mention HIS GOOD POINTS AND HIS TALENTS, you dredge up stuff about Davenport or Brune.
THIS STUFF IS OFTEN IRRELEVANT THEN YOU WHINGE ON ABOUT SHIT MOUNTAINS.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,vectis sans cookie
Date: 02 Feb 15 - 05:51 PM
There was a tribute to Ewan at Auckland Folk Festival at the end of January. They sang the songs he wrote extremely well but, strangely, none of them had ever met the man.
I went to the Singers Club a few times between '72 and '75 but can't remember the venue, an upstairs room as I recall. The only songs I knew from my home county were contemporary so I sang them. One of them was 'The Breathalyser' by Laurie Say. Ewan asked for the song at the break and I said no, 'because that is my tradition not yours'. He took it with a bark of laughter and a 'well said'. Peggy reckoned not many refused him.
About 1974/5 A motorcycling friend invited me to go to a party with her as she thought it would be my cup of tea. She picked me up and we went in her Mum's car to ha suburban house. I was gobsmacked when I met my host and hostess for the evening, Ewan and Peggy, who remembered me from the club. A great evening of chat, argument and a few songs. I went back a few times and , coming from a staunch Tory county, I can honestly claim that Ewan subverted and tried to radicalise me to the far left; I met him somewhere left of centre in the end.
He did say that when he met Peggy the first thing he noticed was that her neck needed a wash 'typical student'.
They were both unfailingly polite, helpful and very encouraging to an extremely shy and gauche young student who had just started singing out and had moved from the country to South London.
As a young teacher I phoned Peggy one evening to ask for some lyrics as I wanted a song for an assembly. She asked me if the hall had a record player, it had, and two days later a vinyl LP arrived with the song on it. I still have the record and it is cherished.
I met Peggy a few years ago at Whitby and she still remembered me almost 40 years later. I was so chuffed.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 02 Feb 15 - 09:03 PM
Vectis, that sounds about right.I know other people who found them very helpful
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Feb 15 - 09:22 PM
In 1958-9 I was in Scotland on a Fulbright, and on vacation in London I went to a meeting of the Ballads & Blues Society, at which somebody who must have been Ewan MacColl (I didn't know him from Adam at the time) sang, and the audience clamored for The Second Front Song, and he sang that. I wanted to learn it, but that was not so easy then as it is now, and it was several years before I managed to record the song off the radio in California. Later on in the '60s I accumulated some LPs, and in 1983, when he, Peggy, & Calum performed in Cambridge, MA, I bought everything on the table. When, in 1993, I encountered the estimable Abby Sale on rec.music.folk, we turned out to have extensive but disjoint collection, and we furiously exchanged tapes.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 03 Feb 15 - 05:57 AM
Hootenanny -
" I have seen Bob Davenport several times over many years and usually enjoyed his singing."
Well, substitute many for several and that could be me speaking. I also find the man's company very pleasant and have always regarded him as a charming bloke - strong opinions, but then that could be said of many of us. However, I am prepared to listen to the opinion of others that at times he could be awkward, argumentative and truculent. Bob is a human being and therefore not perfect.
I do find it strange that if any form of criticism or negative statement about the central figure of this thread is made, an opinion from a certain quarter says that these people are contributing to a huge structure of ordure whilst from the same source we get statements about Bob Davenport that are derogatory. For example, he is accused that he wrecked MacColl and Lloyd's attempts to persuade the British folk clubs to work together. At the very least this statement is questionable and hardly logical. One man opposed the formation of a federation and therefore it did not happen?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 15 - 06:43 AM
you see what i mean Jim. all this stuff about being delightful company......
hmmm....makes him sound like John Major.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 03 Feb 15 - 06:49 AM
John Major was a cricket nerd and a serial philanderer, not one of Ewans faults
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 03 Feb 15 - 06:50 AM
major bowled at least one maiden over namely edwina currie
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 03 Feb 15 - 07:28 AM
Edwina Currie wasn't a maiden. Not much of a lady either.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 04:27 AM
"At the very least this statement is questionable and hardly logical."
And on record
We have a recrdijg of The John Snow meeting i which Davenport shouted down all the speakers from the floor plus Lloyd ad MacColl, who had organised the meeting to attempt to bring some semblance of agreement to the folk scene
The meeting broke up in chaos when Davenport said, in reply to a speaker from the floor, that Jeannie Robertson was a terrible singer.
Only "questionable" to the apologists who wish to ignore or excuse that sort of behaviour - or call my a liar, of course - everything's possible in today's revival, it would appear
Our last experience of Bob was at The Musical Traditions club in London
The guests for the night wee Roisín White and a fine, highly skilled singer from The Aran Islands, Theresé Mullane
Theresé sang all her songs in Irish, and was thoughtful enough to give a short and helpful explanation of each one.
We were unfortunate enough to be sitting in the row in front of 'good ol' Bob', who, during the introductions, spoke loudly and pointedly over each one.
After the third time of it happening, Pat, somewhat pissed off, turned around and asked him to be quiet.
The reply was, "I came hear to listen to singing, not ****** talking - I thought we'd left this shit behind back in the 1960s"
She was later thanked by several people in the audience for having managed to shut him up.
In all the twenty years I knew MacColl. I never once saw him behave with such contempt towards either fellow-performers or audience - but that's me.
Would welcome comments on that sort of behaviour rather than urban legends, Chinese whispers and speculation of why a psychiatrist should collude to keep MacColl out of the Army in order to defame somebody on his 100th birthday, who, as Peggy once wrote in The Living Tradition, "Isn't around to defend himself any more"
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 05:03 AM
"In all the twenty years I knew MacColl. I never once saw him behave with such contempt towards either fellow-performers or audience" Correct, MacColl had faults , but when he was on stage he was always professional, in fact as performer and presenter he was a good role model, I have in the past mentioned criticism from Lou Killen of MacColl, but that criticism in my opinion was not intended to mean he was not a good singer,he was , but that he lacked spontanaeity in interpretation, in my opinion a valid point.and in my opinion meant as a minor criticism
but since you have called me a talentless moron, I doubt if you will take it on board.
off stage, he could be rather like you, Here is an example.
IN 1969 OR 1970,I went to Farningham folk club to hear MacColl and Seeger,I paid to get in and listened to the first half, at the break they had a table selling their recordings etc. I approached MacColl as a customer and attempted to buy a recording of Mike and Peggy Seeger. he said to me, oh you like that kind of stuff do you? his manner was boorish and sarcastic and patronising, my reaction was to think who is this pompous ill mannered, old fart, I left their gig and made a mental note to avoid ever going to the singers club. I went back to Farningham many times first as a floor singer and then later as a booked performer, the atmosphere was friendly and the standard of resident singers was high.
By contrast, ALTHOUGH I hve only met him a few times I have always found Bob Davenport polite.they are two very different types of performers but each in their own way good.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 05:44 AM
Sounds very "boorish and sarcastic" Dick - sounds more like one of Ewan's attempts at humour to me - obviously totally wasted on soemoene with such a keen sense-of-huumour as yours.
Do you honestly expect anybody to believe that he would seriously publicly make a detrimental comment on his wife's and his brother-in-law's singing - apart from your good self, that is?
Thanks for giving us a representative sample of the level of personal attack on MacColl some thirty years after his death - must have been a really awesome individual to make them still necessary!!
No comment of Davenport's behaviour then - of cousre not p- why would I expect one?
"but each in their own way good."
Praise from a master of the craft!!
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 06:31 AM
MacColls performances in my opinion was an act, well presented and well prepared.
MacColl was making an attack on the fact that I preferred an LP of American Folk Music to uk trad music or any of his own material that he was singing that particular night.
When Shirley Collins described a similiar exchange that she had, it was quite similiar to my conversation wth MacColl.
I am not a liar and neither is Shirley Collins.
you on the other hand have called me a talentless moron and now are suggesting that i am a liar, you appear to have got some religious fervour about MacColl., which appears to blind you anybody else making a reasoned critique.
I on the other hand am prepared to say what a good songwriter, how well presented and professional were his performances but that like most of us he had faults, anyone can see which is the most believable portrayal.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 06:48 AM
"MacColl was making an attack on the fact that I preferred an LP of American Folk Music"
No it wasn't - Ewan spent his life working alongside a singer of American folksongs and of all Peggy's family, he had an enoromous respect for Mike, who was a guest of The Singer's Club several times.
When we joined the Critics Group we were given a list of source singers to listen to - high on that list were Sara Ogan Gunning, Dillard Chandler, and Texas Gladden - among the best examples of traditional singers as there are available.
Your claim is little more than a spiteful summing up of a joke - typical of the snide attacks of MacColl
I don't claim you to be a liar - you say little worth such a response - your being a talentless moron is self-evident when you descend to the level you often do with your smears and your threats of violence
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 06:59 AM
Why would i comment on Davenports behaviour, this thread "is any first hand anecdotes about MacColl", I have given a first hand anecdote, you dont like it and start throwing your toys out of the pram., whats new.
I was not present on the occasions and take no notice of irrelevant gossip by others you or otherwise, this thread is about MacColl not about Nixon or Davenport or alex campbell., YOUR ATTEMPTS TO DRAG THEM INTO THIS THREAD ARE TRANSPARENT THEY ARE ATTEMPTS TO DIVErT THE CONVERSATION AWAY FROM MacColl,blatant re herrings and attempts to muddy the waters.
I do believe Shirley Collins, I have met her and got the impression she was honest.
I am not in the habit of telling lies or making up anecdotes.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 07:06 AM
"Your claim is little more than a spiteful summing up of a joke - typical of the snide attacks of MacColl"
you were not there, were you? your interpretation it was a a joke. well you would say that wouldnt you?
I am not spiteful about MacColl,I am being truthful, I related a fist hand anecdote
I have repeatedly pointed out what a good songwriter he was and how professional he was as a performer.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 07:08 AM
I realise that this is rather pointless, that it is foolish to argue with a person whose dogmatic views are impossible to shift, but for the sake of honesty and obtaining an objective view, may I point out that the views expressed at 06 Feb 15 - 04:27 AM are just one interpretation of the meeting and that a contemporary report of that meeting was posted on this thread as long ago (God help us!) as 06 Feb 11 - 08:54 AM under the title Time For A Truce Ha! Some Hope!
Two important quotations from that article:-
The real point about MacColl and Davenport is that they are not contradictory, they are complementary.
and
But the time has come for calling a truce. What unites us is more important than what divides us. What we can learn from you, whoever you are, is probably greater than what you can learn from us. The real enemy is the mass media, which will try to kill folk and popular culture, and if they cannot kill it they will emasculate it, and if they cannot emasculate it, they will pervert it, and if they cannot pervert it they will feed on it.
The appeal from the unknown reviewer is heartfelt. `He/She would like to see these two important figures combining their talents for the benefit of traditional song. This did not happen. In the end the approach typified by both Bob & Ewan seemed to be incompatible and both are to blame for the negative effect that this had on the development of the folk scene. Both share the blame for being intransigent and unbending. What we are seeing here is an attempt to re-write history and to say that all the blame lies on one side.
Lastly, I hope, I posed the question One man opposed the formation of a federation and therefore it did not happen? was not met with an attempt to answer the question but with a repetition, heard before on Mudcat, of a one sided account of Bob's misbehaviour. I have to ask, 'Was that enough to stop MacColl & Lloyd forming a federation without Davenport?'
As it happened, within two years of the meeting under discussion the British Federation of Folk Clubs - BFFC was founded and I was an early member. The first chairman was Dave Campbell, Ian Campbell's father. The agenda for their meetings did not have political or socio-political overtones, they were concerned with practical matters, with clubs sharing information, how to publicise events, organise local tours that would work. I got some very good ideas and a feeling of common good and support from them. Neither MacColl nor Davenport's ideas were prominent at the meetings.