Mudcat Café message #3688836

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Thread #105376 Message #3688836
Posted By: Joe Offer
22-Feb-15 - 12:37 AM
Thread Name: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 11:57 AM

"Jim. You obviously consider the fact that Bob Davenport said that he thought that Jeannie was a terrible singer to be very important"
Not necessarily
Bob is entitled to his opinion to any singer, though, as far as I am concerned, I make it a point not to involve any traditional singer in revival squabbling - that is not what they signed up for - I remember mentioning it to Nibs Matthews once - he also considered it bad form.
I raise it because it was the climax to Bob's wrecking a meeting which I consider to have been worthwhile - I really have no problem with Bob's not liking Jeannie's singing, 'chacun à son goût' as they say, just his loutish behaviour, which was still apparent when he was wrecking a singer's introductions at the Musical traditions club a few years ago.
When the MacColl corpse-kickers start up about his behaviour, Bob's contempt for his fellow-performers always comes to mind - never saw, or even heard of MacColl behaving that way.
The suggestion that Jeannie would have been booed off stage was not a serious one, though I have noted the hostility to long ballads throughout my time on Mudcat - usually goes along with "finger-in-ear", "boring", "out-of-date", "purist" - and the rest of the crap.
Pat used to do the mini-tours for Walter Pardon, whenever he came to London.
The last time, she was phoning round looking for a booking for him in clubs we thought we know, and the lady she spoke to asked what Walter did.
When she described Walter's performance, she was told "Oh no, we only book folk singers".
I went to the Fox a number of times when I first went to London - fine for Irish music (when it wasn't being drowned out by heavy-handed piano accompaniment), but apart from that, I much preferred he serious approach and the skill dedication of what went on at 'The Singers Club' - any day.....
It was there I got my love of ballads
I don't find Dave's comparison between the two particularly excellent.
I heard some of the best of our field singers and musicians there down the years, including Harry Cox, Walter Pardon, The Stewarts, Paddy Tunney, Seamus Ennis, Willie Scott, Willie McPhee, Duncan Williamson.....
The Singers provided a platform for some of out best Traveller singers when we were working with them in London.
I totally agree with the "moribund" description of the Tradition.
Throughout the thirty odd years of field-work we did, we were working with singers who were remembering, or more often than not, remembering being told of a living tradition
The only exception to this was the Travellers, who had a creative song tradition right up to the point when they all went into Woolworths and bought portable televisions (some time between summer 1973 and Easter 1975 - we were able to pinpoint it as accurately as that).
One Traveller woman summed up the situation perfectly at the end of the 70s "We don't sing those old songs anymore - we've been modernised".
Walter Pardon had the songs he did because he remembered them being sung at home by his uncle prior to the outbreak of W.W.2. - he said the real singing had died out with the harvest suppers when he was a child - he barely remembered them and had never himself sung, apart from at Christmas parties at home.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 12:39 PM

I don't find Dave's comparison between the two particularly excellent.

Well, OK, but it is a useful way of describing the different structure and style characterised by the two approaches which for some years was divisive to the traditional side of the folk scene in England. Cut down to its bare bones, Dave's essential division was between An evening at their Thursday club, the Fox at Islington, was a social event, not a Singers' Club classroom lecture. Now you are almost bound to find that description pejorative, Jim, but if you allow yourself to stick with it for the purpose of this debate, one has the residents sitting at the front and allowing themselves the right to comment, to approve or otherwise, to augment what has been said, to provide useful comment. The other is a sort of musical get together with friends or at least like-minded people with no discernible centrally important figure.
Let's look at the 30 years or so since Ewan died and how things have changed and developed. During that time the long-term decline of the weekly folk club has continued. There are far fewer clubs and the ones that are still there are not so well attended by their aging audiences as they were at one time, nor do they book high quality guests from outside their area as regularly as they did at one time. I find this very sad because very little can match an evening in s good well-run folk club, but sadly I believe my assessment to be an accurate one. I am delighted that Folk 21 is there and showing great enthusiasm for the club format, but it is too early to assess their impact or their lack of it. As well as folk clubs not attracting a younger audience, the younger talented perfomers seem to prefer the concert format that has, to an extent, replaced folk clubs,
Meanwhile, the tune session, the regular singaround and the mixed song and tune sessions have proliferated, I could go to one every night within a ten mile radius of where I live. Some are excellent, some are variable, some are so-so and some are dire, but probably because they don't look to charge admission price, they are more sustainable than the traditional folk club.
In trying to work out the legacy from the Fox/Singers' Club days let's ask ourselves these questions:-
* How many folk music ventures in the UK are today run on Singer's Club lines?
* How many folk music ventures in the UK are today run on the social-gathering-with-music lines (and I think that we would have to include singarounds/sessions in this category) ?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 01:09 PM

"was a social event, not a Singers' Club classroom lecture" is a spiteful misrepresentation of what went on there Vic - that wan never the case - certainly not in my time anyway.
It is one of these arguments loaded with the philosophy that enjoyment and knowledge are contradictory - which typifies much of the revival.
"How many folk music ventures in the UK are today run on Singer's Club lines?"
A point I have been making for a long time, along with "how many clubs can I go to and expect to hear folk songs.
I have been told by your townsman that I am not allowed to ask such a question as I don't frequent that many clubs any more - I actually cut my club intake down to about half dozen when I found myself coming away without hearing one
I have been convinced on this forum that this is now the norm.
The clubs, for me, were a venue to listen to good songs well sung, when that stopped, I stopped going
You say "developed" I say "deteriorated" - "lets call the whole thing off" (can't do a musical notation symbol - sorry)
We went to a club in Dublin last Sunday night run by and largely performed at, young singers, between the ages of 20 and 30, nearly all singing superbly - not a 'glugger' among them in three hours.
The songs that weren't traditional, were new songs using traditional formats.
We had to get there half an hour before it started to get a seat.
On Tuesday, we went to the same venue for a 'recital' - a fiddler, a piper, a harpist and an Irish language singer aged somewhere in her late 20s, (the other three were younger)fully capable of raising the hairs on the back of your neck with her singing.
Call be old fashioned, but that's what I call a good, enjoyable night out.
I sincerely hope there is enough interest in MacColl's ideas here in Clare to get something moving in this County, which has a fine history of singing - all I'm getting from your side of the Irish Sea is backbiting, snide and begrudgery
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,SirCoughsalot
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 01:24 PM

MacColl left this world before I was even thought of, let alone playing music, so I never met him. I've just heard his recordings and his songs. I like his music.

I did meet Peggy Seeger very briefly during the interval at her concert. It was at the West Virginia culture center and sponsored by the Friends of Old-Time Music and Dance. I think I was a high school sophomore at the time. She had just sang the best version of "Sweet William's Ghost" I've ever heard. I told her how much I appreciated her singing traditional material, that most of the folk singers I knew hardly ever sang any. She said, "That's true. Why don't you do something about that?" I'll never forget it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,SirCoughsalot
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 01:25 PM

Also I forgot to mention she said onstage that it was the anniversary of the day she met MacColl. Then she sang "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face."

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 02:49 PM

"MacColl left this world before I was even thought of, let alone playing music"
Nice story, and very typical of Peggy
We hadn't seen her for quite a long time, until a few years ago when she rang us up and said the wold be appearing at a venue at Sixmilebridge, about thirty-odd mile from here.
We turned up to find an audience of people about your age, who had never seen Peggy live and had only heard her through her more popular songs (First Time Ever being high on the list)
We asked her would she do a couple of ballads, so se asked the crowd would that be ok as "we have a couple of old ballad-buffs in the audience"
We got a little short of ten, which they lapped up - you could have walked on the atmosphere that night.
Our radio-producer friend was in the audience, and she was totally smitten.
When we got down to putting together the two programmes, we gave her masses of (far too much) recorded material to work with, including our interview of Ewan talking about Clyde's Water and one of the finest nights of singing we ever recorded at the Singers, a Ballad feature evening entitled 'Blood and Roses'.
We left all the choices of recordings to Paula - she went overboard on Ewan singing and talking about 'Clydes Water' and included a short part of the longest introductions I ever heard him do on a ballad
He had started with a factual introduction to 'The Keach in the Creel' which he then rounded off with telling a seventeenth century fableux covering the same story, but this time about the apprentice of a renaissance painter trying to get it off with his master's daughter - so much for the "Singers' Club classroom lecture".
When will they ever learn?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 07:05 AM

Vic, re your question above:

"How many folk music ventures in the UK are today run on Singer's Club lines?"

Can I ask the same question about the 1960's? and hope for honest answers?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 07:22 AM

Up to the 80s Britain was full of clubs that weren't singaround clubs and expected singers who came along to remember words, sing in tune and show a degree of commitment and respect towards the songs that were being sung.
People who came along to hear folk songs heard them without being told "folksong means something else now"
There were numerous regular workshops attached to clubs based on the Critics Group model being given assistance from The Singers, and clubs like it.
That was what The Singers Club was about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (Cookie lost forever)
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 09:45 AM

I remember a folk club back in the late 60s ( I won't mention names!) which decided to have a Critics panel. I had been accompanying a girl singing "Plasir dAmour" with lots of barre chords. I was told off for "Playing the same chord, just moving it up and down a bit!"

Eddie

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 11:13 AM

Up to the 80s Britain was full of clubs that weren't singaround clubs and expected singers who came along to remember words, sing in tune and show a degree of commitment and respect towards the songs that were being sung.
People who came along to hear folk songs heard them without being told "folksong means something else now"
There were numerous regular workshops attached to clubs based on the Critics Group model being given assistance from The Singers, and clubs like it.
That was what The Singers Club was about

I try to stop posting in this thread but it is the sustained efforts to rewrite history that draws me back. So let me make a couple of comments here.
* The influence of the Singers' Club/Critics Group was much less widespread during the years of its existence than has been claimed. Yes, their thrust was to influence standards and make them higher but they were far from being the only ones who did so. Hootenannay asks how many clubs were run on the Singers' Club lines and the answer is that there were very few. The question about standards was with us all the time throughout the fifty years that I was running folk clubs and it was not MacColl and his followers that had a monopoly of methods on raising those standards. Nobody questions their motivation for the good, it is their methods that have been widely criticised.
* The assumption that all standards have fallen in all clubs needs to be challenged. Many of the guests that I booked in my last ten years of running clubs were graduates of the traditional music degree courses of which we now have three in the UK. The standard of singing and musicianship is incomparably higher than that of the entry-level professionals in the days of the Critics Group/Singers Club. These youngsters have recently come from four years of honing their performance skills full time; it bloody well ought to be higher. There must be few people contributing here who have been to as many folk clubs as I have been doing regularly every week since I was at school. I am not speaking from a perspective of someone who has withdrawn from British clubs but still feels the right to criticise.
* Look through this thread. Count up the number of times that MacColl has been praised as performer, inspiration, songwriter, mover and shaker. Sometimes contributors have felt the need to balance their comments with comments that are critical of the man's action or methods; count them as well. Finally, count the number of times, the number of ways in which any critical comments have been jumped on - some of these - "spiteful misrepresentation" - would be considered a valid opinion in a reasoned discussion, others - "shit-mountain" - we could clearly do without. Unless MacColl was a Stakhanovite folklorist or a Christian saint performer, surely contributors should be allowed to seek a balanced view?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 11:28 AM

Have just been told that an American singer and musician, now living in the UK, recently said that Ewan MacColl had fought in the Spanish Civil War. I suppose that this shows how the truth can change as time passes. The story is, of course, untrue. (Mind you, had MacColl indeed been in Spain during the War he would probably have spent his time sitting in a Madrid garden reading Lorca!)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 11:29 AM

"Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 07:22 AM

Up to the 80s Britain was full of clubs that weren't singaround clubs and expected singers who came along to remember words, sing in tune and show a degree of commitment and respect towards the songs that were being sung.
People who came along to hear folk songs heard them without being told "folksong means something else now"
There were numerous regular workshops attached to clubs based on the Critics Group model being given assistance from The Singers, and clubs like it.
That was what The Singers Club was about
Jim Carroll"
ah but it was not entirely what it was about, you are being econmical with the truth, they had a singing policy which applied to their club, and that policy was that singers had to sing songs in the club from their geographical back ground, so it was ok for tom paley and peggy seeger to sing american songs, but not for lisa turner[ who was not american] .
is that not the case Jim, please let us have the whole truth.
it is also the case that Lisa Turner was stopped by MacColl whilst singing single boy and reminded of the rule.

was peggy allowed to sing english or scottish songs at the singers club?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 11:44 AM

Fopr about the thitrettenth time i will reiterate, MacColl was a fine songwriter, he was professional in his presentation his singing technique was very good, both he and Peggy on the occasions that i saw them gave a very high standard of performance.
I found Ewan to be both polite and rude and morose on two different occasions, that is called a balanced comment, it is not a spiteful mis representation.
Ido not think his influence on the uk folk revival was pernicious, although I disagree with some of his ideas and some of his style of doing things, I think he genuinely wanted to help people but on occasions[ his condemnation of a song about vietnam for example] could give the impression of being pompous and overbearing.
he never struck me as being fun, in fact a bit like jim carroll[rather serious and pedantic[ in the schoolmasterly sense], but no one can discount his dedication and meticulous attention to detail when it came to performance or song writing.
that is not a shit mountain but one persons balanced view, if you have a problem with that jim . well tough.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 12:15 PM

"The influence of the Singers' Club/Critics Group was much less widespread during the years of its existence than has been claimed. "
Who claimed it was influential?
MacColl certainly was influential as a performer, as a songwriter, as someone who introduced many hundreds of songs into the repertoire, and, to those prepared to listen (sadly absent from this discussion), someone who spent decades developing and passing on an understanding of the importance of folksong and a technique for assisting singers to develop their abilities and understanding - I don't know of another single individual or organisation who did that (all too busy pursuing their own careers) or organisation.
The Critics Group as a working body jointly participated in the planning and recording of around thirty albums, opened up the London repertiore and put on six professional quality shows, each ovr two hours long and running for two weeks in the years they took place - at the time they were hailed as among the best in the field.
When I was asked to sum up the work of the Critics at MacColl's 70th birthday symposium, my main criticism was that the Group did not attempt to spread its influence wide enough- that remains my opinion today.
Whatever MacColl's failings, thirty years after his death death it is still impossible to discuss the work he did or the ideas he put forward without shit dating back to the 1950s, largely unsubstantiated.
If people had shown any interest in discussing and rejecting those ideas - fine - it's certainly not happening here.
I find the ignorance of what MacColl and the Critics Group was about mindboggling (if anybody in the Group #had attempted to "emulate" MacColl's singing, they would have been told about it sharply - the idea that The Critics all sounded like Ewan or Peggy if ****** nonsense, and somewhat ludicrous coming from a revival that was swamped with Carthy clones, or Waterson wailers)
I find the smugness of someone gloating that the work the Critics Group wasn't influential somewhat sickening when it coms from someone who has done his best to make sure that their work isn't discussed here.
You want to pull down the work of the Group, do it on the basis of what it was.
If you want to take it down, do so by allowing a discussion on it, not throwing stones at it from a distance.
There's no attempt to seek a "balanced view" here Vic - just a battle to maintain the status quo.
From personal experience - if I had to choose, I'd take the Singers Club, where I could go and listen to good songs well sung, nd be asked to think about what I was listening to, rather that the prevailing situation, where I have to research beforehand to see if I'm going to hear a folk song if I go to a folk club.
MacColl told us when we interviewed him that the club scene would implode on itself if it ever fell into the hands of people who didn't like folk songs enough to work at them - seems he was right
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 12:33 PM

Meant to add
I've already said to your fellow knocker, Dick Miles, I'm not interested in discussing MacColl as an individual, I knew him too long for that to be necessary, nor do I need the lip-service about his abilities as a singer or songwriter - that's too well established a fact - it would be nice to put some of the ideas to the test though
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 01:17 PM

"I find the ignorance of what MacColl and the Critics Group was about mindboggling (if anybody in the Group #had attempted to "emulate" MacColl's singing, they would have been told about it sharply - the idea that The Critics all sounded like Ewan or Peggy if ****** nonsense, and somewhat ludicrous coming from a revival that was swamped with Carthy clones, or Waterson wailers)"
This statement is PECULIAR BUT NOT FUNNY.
i have yet to hear any group that attempted to imitate the Watersons, this statement illustrates the appalling ignorance of the poster.
The Watersons have never been imitated by anyone, they were unique mainly because of Mike Watersons style which was not conventional, absoulutely ridiculous Carroll nonsense., PLEASE GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF ONE SUCH GROUP, if you cant for god sake stop pontificating
it is quite true there were guitar imitators of Carthy and Jones.
"When I was asked to sum up the work of the Critics at MacColl's 70th birthday symposium, my main criticism was that the Group did not attempt to spread its influence wide enough- that remains my opinion today."
to quote Mandy Rice Davies, you would say that wouldnt you,being a MacColl disciple an all.
Jim you talk the biggest amount of unsubstantiated hot air ,please give examples of Waterson imitators or as you so rudely[ another trait you seem to have in common with your idol]call them the waterson wailers. Jim i will be polite fuck off

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 01:23 PM

"i will be polite fuck off"
Still the feller who whines about people being rude to him, threatens them with violence and gets himelf thrown off discussion forums
Wonder why?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 01:29 PM

If you ever threaten me with violence again, attempt to manipulate a thread I'm on, as you have this one, or attempt in any way from saying what I have to say, I'll do my level best to have you removed from this one, you've only just come out of hiding when you were forced to post incognito - get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 02:28 PM

Jim, you are talking rubbish, i have never been forced to do anything. now, you referred in your usual polite way to waterson wailers, who were these clones of the watersons substantiate your statement or stop talking nonsense ,nobody hase ever recreated the sound of the watersons, neither have their been waterson clones.
I have stated that I would not waste my energy being violennt to you already, Ihave better things to do.
now, answer the question who were these waterson clones? Iam not attemtping to stop you speaking to the contrary ,I want you to substantiate your wild statement about waterson wailer clones.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 02:57 PM

"Jim, you are talking rubbish"
If you ever tell me to "fuck off" again, threaten me in any way, or try to mnipulate threads by telling me what this subject is. I'll do my best to see that your feet don't touch on this forum.
If The Sessions Forum doesn't have to put up with your cretinous behavior, there is no reason on earth why Mudcat should - take your creepy stalking somewhere else if you can't control yourself
Do you get my message?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 03:48 PM

You have insulted The Watersons by calling them the Waterson Wailers,and I am still waiting for you to answer the question who are these Waterson clones.,
I
I have   made it clear that I have no intention of being violent towards you, I cannot be bothered to waste any energy with crap like that I am not a violent person, do you understand.
the only message I get from you, is that you cannot answer the question, who were these so called Waterson Clones?, no one has ever copied the Watersons and you know it.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 04:37 PM

you, say you will have me removed, where to the gulag archipelago, thats what really gets me, you have this Stalinist attitude, same as your idol, have the fellow removed make him into a non person, liquidate him he is a deviationist, not following the correct Carroll/Stalin line breaking the rules, a Davenport devationist, send him to a folk club in outer siberia

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 15 - 06:27 PM

as Captain Mainwaring said, i think we;re getting into the realms of fantasy....somwhere along the line...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 08:09 AM

Someone close this thread down for goodness sake.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 08:10 AM

As usual, once a thread has descended to insult, invective and threat, I no longer wish to contribute. This has become the character of this thread in all the posts between those of Mike Yates and Al Whittle - so I am off.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 09:25 AM

" This has become the character of this thread in all the posts between those of Mike Yates and Al Whittle"
I have posted twice in that period and have not insulted anybody, other thna to respond to Dick's ongoing foul-mouthed abuse(I am not the only one he has aided it at) and I resent being accused of having done so.
Dick has been removed from one forum for his behaviour; I see little reason why it should be tolerated here.
I am appalled, but not really surprised, that once again it is impossible to discuss MacColl's work on singing because of the old usual character assassination and personal attacks, rather than his artistry - sort of like refusing to discuss The Theory of Relativity because somebody claimed that Einstein picked his nose.
I'll leave you to your ritual corpse-kicking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 09:44 AM

you have insulted the watersons, you called them the waterson wailers, who are these waterson clones?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 10:25 AM

I have not insulted the Watersons - not that they are particular favourites, mind you.
Wwatersons waialers" refered to the many dozens of Waterson Wannabe's who hauted the London clubs throughout the 70s and 80s, alaong with the many dozens of "Carthy copiers" - please don't tell me they didn't exist, unless you want to add "liar" to your list of insults.
If I had chosen to comment on the Waterson's singing style - it has nothing whatever to do with you - you peole have no compunction in insulting a performer 1,000 times mor skilful, dedicated and knowledgeable than you could ever hope to be - who has been dead for three decades - (I believe it was you who told me it was bad form to make adverse comments on Alex Campbell because he was dead).
THis mindnumbing discussin is now over - get off my back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 11:06 AM

so who were these waterson clones? answer for once
you cannot name any because they never existed no one could sound like the watersons., they had a very distinctive individual style.
I have praised maccoll as a song writer and performer. I can post wherever i like, you are misinformed, you have had differences with musical traditions, and i understand you are barred from certain places. stop trying to bully me and threatening me with removal ,you are not joe stalin, although you seem to have the same control freak traits.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 12:05 PM

MacColl's praise for Stalin was not a solo act. He was often referred to as |Uncle Joe in wartime broadcasts when he was our ally against Hitler.

Also i think the Soviets financed left wing movements and literature in the 1930's in England - this at a time when the working classes had few allies.

personally i love that left wing thread of English literature - Auden and Spender - Edward Upward and of course pre Spain Orwell.

its not really fair to sneer at Ewan about being taken in by Stalin - it was something he shared with many intellectuals of the period - George Bernard Shaw, and the entire English Secret Service!

lets stop arguing and talk about this fascinatimg subject.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 12:35 PM

"MacColl's praise for Stalin was not a solo act."
Of course it wasn't - the whole of the Left regarded The Soviet Union as the first Worker's State and believed the stories coming out of Russia to be propaganda - it wasn't till Krushchev's speech at the 1956 National Congress, that (only some of)the revelations filtered out (The Ballad of Stalin was written and issued by The Worker's Music Association in 1952).
The "Stalinist" gulags dated back to the middle of the 19th century and were set up by the Tsarist regime - ironically, both Lenin and Stalin were incarcerated there.
Some of the left-wing members of my family wept openly at the announcement of Stalin' death.
I've always found it odd (not really) that nobody ever mentions the fact that Bert Lloyd, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger......and many other early folkies were almost certainly 'Stalinists', not forgetting some fine British and American literary figures - one of John Steinbeck's great novels, tells of the trials and tribulations of a "party" member organising fruit picker - wonderful book - and I have never been a lover of Stalin
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 12:40 PM

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 01:16 PM

I am responding to Carrolls threats towards me about being removed.
Assassination of Trotsky

Stalin assigned the organisation and execution of a plan to assassinate Trotsky[citation needed] to Nahum Eitingon who recruited Ramón Mercader during the Spanish Civil War.

On 24 May 1940, Trotsky survived a raid on his home[113] by armed Stalinist assassins led by GPU agent Iosif Grigulevich, Mexican painter and Stalinist David Alfaro Siqueiros, and Vittorio Vidale.[citation needed] Trotsky's young grandson, Vsievolod Platonovich "Esteban" Volkov (born 1926), was shot in the foot and a young assistant and bodyguard of Trotsky, Robert Sheldon Harte, was abducted and later murdered, but other guards defeated the attack.[114]

On 20 August 1940, Trotsky was attacked in his home in Mexico with a mountaineers' ice axe by undercover NKVD agent Ramón Mercader.[115] The blow to Trotsky's head was poorly delivered and failed to kill Trotsky instantly, as Mercader had intended. Witnesses stated that Trotsky spat on Mercader and began struggling fiercely with him. Hearing the commotion, Trotsky's bodyguards burst into the room and nearly killed Mercader, but Trotsky stopped them, laboriously stating that the assassin should be made to answer questions.[116] Trotsky was taken to a hospital, operated on, and survived for more than a day, dying at the age of 60 on 21 August 1940 as a result of loss of blood and shock.[117][118] Mercader later testified at his trial:

    I laid my raincoat on the table in such a way as to be able to remove the ice axe which was in the pocket. I decided not to miss the wonderful opportunity that presented itself. The moment Trotsky began reading the article, he gave me my chance; I took out the ice axe from the raincoat, gripped it in my hand and, with my eyes closed, dealt him a terrible blow on the head.[116]

According to James P. Cannon, the secretary of the Socialist Workers Party (USA), Trotsky's last words were "I will not survive this attack. Stalin has finally accomplished the task he attempted unsuccessfully before."[119]
Leon Trotsky's grave in Coyoacán, where his ashes are buried
Epilogue

Trotsky's house in Coyoacán was preserved in much the same condition as it was on the day of the assassination and is now a museum run by a board which includes his grandson Esteban Volkov. The current director of the museum is Carlos Ramirez Sandoval. Trotsky's grave is located on its grounds. A new foundation (International Friends of the Leon Trotsky Museum) has been organized to raise funds to further improve the Museum.

Trotsky was never formally rehabilitated during the rule of the Soviet government, despite the Glasnost-era rehabilitation of most other Old Bolsheviks killed during the Great Purges. His son, Sergei Sedov, killed in 1937, was rehabilitated in 1988, as was Nikolai Bukharin. Above all, beginning in 1989, Trotsky's books, forbidden until 1987, were finally published in the Soviet Union.

Trotsky was finally rehabilitated on 16 June 2001 by the decision of the General Prosecutor's Office (Certificates of Rehabilitation № 13/2182-90, № 13-2200-99 in Archives Research Center "Memorial")

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 02:14 PM

my dad wasn't a communist. he didn't like the Russian soldiers he met during the war.

i don't think he would have wept at the death of any politician - he wasn't that sort of bloke.

however he found the volte face at the end of the war very hard to stomach. the idea that we would go within a few weeks from Russians being our staunchest allies, to the point where we were considering doing to Moscow what we had done to Hiroshima.

not sure what the death of trotsky has to do with what we're discussing. still perhaps i missed something.

i think maybe Ewan was an idealist and poet - not perhaps the shrewdest judges of a complete bastard like Stalin. lets face it many of the poets who went away to fight in Spain - when they were confronted by the brutality of communism found it a bit of a shock - the bombs and the firing squads etc. Ewan probably loved the idea and poetry of the communist manifesto - but knew that he wasn't the remorseless killing machine that armies need to function.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 03:28 PM

Trotsky was removed he was a perceived threat to stalin. Stalin like Mao did not tolerate anyone who threatened his position or disagreed with him. Jim Carroll cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with his perception of MacColl, he has threatened to have me removed from the forum.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Folkcures
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 03:32 PM

Have they finally found a cure for MacColl syndrome?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 03:47 PM

"Jim Carroll cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with his perception of MacColl, he has threatened to have me removed from the forum".
Well, if that were true, he wouldn't be the only one, would he ?
He does not have the power to have you removed from this forum, but in that I wish him the best of luck.
Why is it that this forum tolerates one member telling another to "fuck off" and no sanction is taken against the offending party ?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 05:03 PM

for gawdsake!

MacColl was a nice but rather irascible old man. he was a creative. a gig on saturday night with a gang of pissed up Irishmen who fancied rebel songs and Johnny Cash would have given him the vapours. Jim Carroll is the friend of this old geezer.

Stalin was a mass murderer, who enslaved half of Europe.

get a grip Dick!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 15 - 06:16 PM

Trotsky was removed he was a perceived threat to stalin. Stalin like Mao did not tolerate anyone who threatened his position or disagreed with him. Jim Carroll cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees with his perception of MacColl, he has threatened to have me removed from the forum.

Been lurking on this thread as I'm interested but basically know nothing.

But.

Fer chrissake, Dick, will you please stop being so bloody stupid.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Kit Wells
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 04:15 AM

I was at St Martin's School of Art in 1959 and was introduced by a banjo player/ animation artist called David Elvin (now sadly deceased) to Bob Davenport. Some time later Bob took me along to a pub at Cambridge Circus (The Moon, I think) to meet with Ewan McColl. For what it is worth to this fascinating thread, I thought he was a singularly miserable old bugger but I was young and full of the joys of that happy state. Bob, if you are around still, it would be nice to have a chat. I live in South West France but sometimes make the trip back to London. kitwells@orange.fr

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:02 AM

Maybe it's worth giving some of MacColl's ideas a try rather than bickering over what kind of individual he was.
About a dozen years ago, a dear friend, Terry Whelan, organised a week-end at Salford University to discuss his work - Pat and I were honoured to be asked to speak about his work with The Critics Group.
This is the opening of what we had to say:
Jim Carroll

"J.C. When Pat Mackenzie and I were asked to come and talk about Ewan and his work we thought that, in the time we have at our disposal, rather than our give a talk, it would be far more effective to let Ewan speak for himself.
Despite the huge amount of work carried out by Ewan on the theory and practice of singing, he wrote very little on the subject. This has left the field open for people to make some of the most outragous misrepresentations and inaccurate interpretations of his ideas, still finding their way into print over a decade after his death.
For the serious researcher whose main pre-occupation isn't axe-grinding, Ewan left behind a large amount of material in recorded form on his work and ideas. Contrary to another gem of misrepresentation in Dave Harker's "One For The Money", where he manages to make The Critics Group sound like the Beckenham branch of The Cosa Nostra, most of the group meetings were openly recorded and are now housed in The Charles Parker Archive in Birmingham. The National Sound Archive, London and Ruskin College, Oxford also have some of these and hopefully they will all become fully accessible in the not-to-distant future.
My own contact with Ewan stretches over 20 odd years and when Pat and I began to record traditional singers, the time we had spent in The Critics Group was of enormous help. Many of the ideas Ewan was putting forward, on the traditional singer as a conscious, creative artist were borne out in full by our work with singers such as Walter Pardon of Norfolk and Tom Lenihan of West Clare.
We have chosen a number of recordings for you to listen to, mainly from an extended interview we did with Ewan between August 1978 and February 1979, with a couple of items taken from The Critics Group tapes.
Ewan was very much opposed to the popular idea that the act of traditional singing was a "natural" one and that the singer really did not have to think about what he or she was doing.
EXAMPLE 1.
"I believe that this notion comes from, it really begins in the Romantic Movement.   It begins with that notion of the rude, unlettered hind with a heart of gold and all the rest of it, you know. Basically today I see it as a very reactionary and very bourgeois point of view. I think it stems from a belief that the working class are incapable of doing anything which demands a high level of expertise and a high level of skill, particularly in the creative field.
And how is it possible then that this body of music that we call folk song and folk music, traditional song, traditional music, whatever you like to call it, how is it possible that this, which has been made by labourers, seamen and all the rest of it, should have, should demand this level of expertise, should demand this high level of craftsmanship on the part of its performers.   "No", they say, "the songs are simple", and all the rest of it.   And that is nonsense, that is utter nonsense.
To some extent it's the same idea that the nineteenth century English folk song collectors had about the music itself.   "It's embryonic music", they said, and when they didn't actually describe it as embryonic, that is what they meant when they talked about it being simple, "the simple music of unlettered people".   But unlettered there is used as a pejorative term, as though the ability to read and write is all important. The implication being that if you can read and write, then you are going to be a better singer than if you can't read or write, and we know that's nonsense.""
It's this snob thing and it's the snob thing which makes them say "you don't need to work at it, you don't need a high level of craftsmanship to perform this.
The best of folk music in the world, wherever it comes from, whether it's a Joe Heaney or whether it's that young man singing those Azerbaijani songs, is full of the most extraordinary expertise, full of the most extraordinary physical ideas, vocal ideas I mean, I mean physical in the vocal sense.
"

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:31 AM

are you sure its not you that's not the snob.

i have never begrudged traditional singers their skill or talent.

however turning up at a non folk venue; knowing the technical side of playing the right material at the right volume.....well whatever Simon Cowell has told you to the contrary.....you don't 'nail it' as a fourteen year old lisping into microphone. it is not without its skills.

moreover....more than few folk performers could benefit from learning those techniques.

is it not in fact you who thinks the working class and jobbing musicians have nothing to teach you. building a bridge with an audience is something that has to be learned - and you won't learn it in places where the audiences just sit there in silence.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:52 AM

"are you sure its not you that's not the snob."
Why?
You wouldn't turn up with an instrument without having worked at it - why is it snobbish to suggest that the same applies to singing?
Don't reckon "lisping into a microphone" is a necessary skill for folk song at all - at all, not in my world
Building a bridge with the audience has to be through the song - not the microphone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 09:15 AM

Is this thread just an excuse for gratuitous insults? It's quite an interesting topic really, but is there an ulterior motive? The lack of contributors is surely an indication of the lack of interest in the details of what may or may not have happened 50 years ago? I suppose Jim C has provoked people into revealing previously unheard anecdotes in the subject title- I have a few which I won't relate, as it would just confirm his persecution complex!
Maybe he could condense them into a publication of some kind, and stop insulting contributors, revival stalwarts and innocent bystanders a well as repeating his pro- MacColl mantra ad nauseam.
Maybe it's all justified for historical research, but having skimmed through the few days since my last post, the vitriol still continues. I'm with Vic- life's too short for this- time to get the tatties chitting.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 10:40 AM

Should that not read "hysterical research"???

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 10:59 AM

As an outside observer who occasionally has a look at this site, can I just say this thread totally sums up mudcat at its worst.

Many of the contributors are obviously very knowledgeable and intelligent, yet seem incapable of "agreeing to disagree", or debating without descending into personal insults.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 11:28 AM

"I suppose Jim C has provoked people into revealing previously unheard anecdotes"
Heard every one of them before - interminably.
The people who revel in these anecdotes need no provocation - they succeed to drown thread after thread n them.
It was, and remains my intention to have MacColl's ideas discussed - not his personality - the fact that this has proved virtually impossible is a poor reflection on the folk scene.
You, among others, are happy to see MacColl criticised, yet are apparently prepared to ignore bad behaviour in others - that's not particularly impressive either
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 12:39 PM

ok let us discuss two of his ideas.
1.
the use of stanislowskis ideas for the radio ballads.
2 The singers club policies[ not entirely his idea, but one he played a major part in.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 12:46 PM

Singing with a microphone is a skill, as is singing without one,so is communicating with an audience both with a mic and without
learning to deal with different types of audiences, let us say from pub singarounds to concert situations require different skills.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 12:56 PM

Jim it is really simple it is like this if you called me a talentless moron to my face,i would tell you to fuck off, you have called me a talentless moron on this forum therefore i feel perfectly justified in telling you to fuck off as i would if you said it to me to my face.
it is simple treat me with good manners and i will respond in a similiar way.
now let us discuss MacColls use of stanislowskis ideas ,Iwould appreciate that.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 01:11 PM

Unmissable for folk music enthusiasts.....
Midsomer Murders

8:00pm, Wednesday 11 February 2015
Duration: 2 hours
Series 17
• Episode 3
The organiser of a folk festival is found murdered, a crime that appears to have been inspired by a ballad made famous by a late and lamented singer. Detectives scour current threads in The Mudcat Cafe for signs of of any heated discussion about a famous deceased singer that that show any rancour to see if there are any clues that could lead to..... aargh...... a knife......my back.....can my last action be a link.....click here.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 01:27 PM

I'm sure you find that both funny and relevant - why shouldn't you
Can I remind you that you, who has complained of the insults here, opened up by saying you were not going to send me a copy of your review because you believed I would on;ly concentrate on the negative things you had to say.
Any respect I ever had for you was flushed down the toilet about then.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 02:33 PM

Well, the really funny thing is that I did not make it up! I cut and paste it from the ITV website.... well, I did add a few words at the end, but I would like to apologise for having a sense of humour.

Any respect I ever had for you was flushed down the toilet about then.
Jim, Jim, Have you ever thought of trying to lighten up - just a little bit? A 100% combative attitude can't be good for your stress levels. I will always make jokes when I see bad feelings rising and anger developing; it is the sort of person that I am.
And since you are sharing information from PMs from me (re. reviews) allow me to quote from one of your PMs to me:-
I have to admit I'm feeling a bit shell-shocked at the moment....
Thanks for the heads up - will try not to let it happen again.
Sadly, I think you are. Now try and post an amicable response to calm things down

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 02:43 PM

jim you either want to discuss macColls ideas or you do not, how about Stanislavski and how he influenced MacColl

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 02:49 PM

"I did add a few words at the end, but I would like to apologise for having a sense of humour."
Don't apologise Vic - you might apologise for using your "sense of humour" as a spoiler to prevent a discussion on MacColl as an artist, but I doubt if you will - much funnier to stay with the character assassinations and smears.
Too old and to set on trying to come to terms with the importance of folk song.
I really would much prefer to discuss MacColl's work than the Chinese whispers, if that's OK with you.
I've attempted to respond to every single point you have made - you have responded to none of mine, in the interest of "balance" no doubt.
Just got word that our Clare collection of 450 songs is to be used in Clare schools in order to put Clare kids in touch with their song tradition, so you've caught me at a good moment - who needs to lighten up?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 02:49 PM

or his use of what he called recitatives in the song writing of the radio ballads? or his prefernce for the dorian mode in his songs etc, or his use of very similiar tunes fopr shoals of herring schooldays over

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 03:26 PM

Sorry to create another bit of thread drift but -

Just got word that our Clare collection of 450 songs is to be used in Clare schools in order to put Clare kids in touch with their song tradition
.....also available in The Irish Traditional Music Archive

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 06:16 PM

one of MacColl s ideas as I understand it, is sometimes called the idea of if, that is you cannot truly convince when singing a song unless you can work yourself into it.
that is one of his ideas that might be discussing, I think it is a good idea. Jim do you want to discuss his ideas or not?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 02:50 AM

"Jim do you want to discuss his ideas or not?"
Course I do Dick, but not with you - that way be dragons.
Thanks for that link Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 04:31 AM

"Is this thread just an excuse for gratuitous insults?"

I'm assuming it's based on the Monty Python sketch...

"Contradiction isn't an argument"
"Oh yes it is"
"Oh no it isn't"
etc...

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 05:15 AM

I am happy to discuss his ideas with you or anyone providing they do not start insulting me with "talentless moron".
Jim action provokes reaction, if you insult me you must expect a certain kind of reaction.
MacCOLL helped a member of the crtics group who was struggling with the song gypsy laddie , he said to the person if you were that girl how would you sing the song,apparantly the effect on the singer and her singing was amazing. he then described the girl in the song diiferently this time as being rich disillusioned and plain, the singer then sang the song completely differently.
very good advice for any singer, and an idea that I would have difficulty finding fault with.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 06:07 AM

I've just had a déjà vu.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 10:46 AM

I've heard that Pentland Dell are pretty good tatties