Jim, when you so soundly condemn people for the inhumanity, intolerance, self interest, subservience to injustice.... on display in some of these discussions - is there any chance of negotiating with them, of establishing any sort of peaceful relationship with them?

That's my point, same with the cake thing. Winning battles isn't all it's cracked up to be, because it rarely brings peace and harmony.

And you and so many others here reject the support of people who believe in winning by means other than battle - by conciliatory means, if possible. That rejection of all but the most stalwart supporters is self-defeating, I think. You end up being right, but you haven't solved the problem you're confronting.

I think the reason why gay marriage has become acceptable so quickly, is that most people are people of good will who will do what they think is fair - if the proposed change is presented reasonably and diplomatically.

In the end, I think it was fair-minded people who have (for the most part) resolved the problem of racial discrimination. It wasn't the aggressive tactics of the true-believers - it was the innate fair-mindedness of ordinary people. And I think the same is true for gay marriage in Ireland. This wasn't people hating Christianity - it was people voting for what they thought was fair, to allow other people to marry whomever they choose.

-Joe-