Steve Shaw says: After centuries of authoritarianism, Catholics expect simple rules, not shading. That's an issue the Church has created for itself. Expecting people to interpret softening-ups of doctrine from vague circumlocutions is expecting too much. You can't turn every Catholic into a theologian.

Thank you, Steve. That's exactly my point...more or less.

It's not about rules. It's not about doctrine. It's not about theology. All those things are ancillary. And my attempts to teach abstractions and nuances were bound for failure because they weren't the point, either.

And Pete's attempts to prove the historicity and scientific factuality of the myth miss the point, too.

There are people of faith in all religions who get the point, but the focus of faith isn't in any of the things I've listed above. Faith involves "ancient mysteries" that defy explanation or definition. Faith is an exploration of the meaning and depth and infinite expanse of what is beyond science. It's not a matter of intellectual study. It's something that is more suited for simplicity and silence, not intellectuality and wordiness. It is best explored and experienced through myth, and ritual, and tradition, and community gathering to share this experience.

Churches present the myth in doctrinal form. For the Catholic Church and most Christian churches, the basic doctrine is the Nicene Creed, and I accept that creed without question. The doctrine cannot contradict science or history, because it is not in the realm of science or history - so Pete's attempts to present doctrine as science and history and Steve's attempts to refute doctrine in terms of science and history, are both futile. But doctrine is not the myth itself, and it is not the Truth. The Judaeo-Christian myth is best presented in the Scriptures and rituals and traditions, as the myths of other denominations are best presented in their own sacred writings and rituals and traditions. But the myth is only a gateway to the object of faith, which is beyond all and is essentially unexplainable (inexplicable).

Most people, even most religious people, never quite "get" what faith is all about. They get bogged down in all that other stuff, the explaining and defending and arguing. And then they fail to see what it is that they're seeking. But a few people in every generation of every faith tradition get glimpses or visions of what it is they're seeking, and those few people set the mark for the rest of us. For those few people, all the denominational squabbling and pettiness is left behind.

Now, Pete and Steve will probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but I hope some of you will see some of it. It's best understood in simplicity and silence, not in rules and doctrines and proofs and arguments.

-Joe-