That's my anecdotal stuff, but at least I know I'm honest, even if YOU don't think so!

I don't doubt your honesty. and I don't think anyone else does either. I hope that is mutual.

However, there will still be a veneer of indoctrination and enforced worship. I am still waiting for my two estimable friends, Kevin and DMcG, to tell me straight whether they think that this is acceptable

I think we have both done so several times, but I will do so again. In many cases, but by no means all, faith schools are seen by large numbers of people as better. And that is a matter of evidence in the form of the extent to which they are over-subscribed. The words people use to describe why they choose the school tend to be words like ethos and discipline. And better discipline gives less class disruption which helps better teaching. So many non-religious parents regard that as a price worth paying. Now, let us imagine that was not in the school, so that it became effectively a non-faith school. Would that improve things? Well, the best assumption we can make is that it would become very similar to all the existing non-faith schools, which are precisely the ones less favoured if a parent chose a faith school. So the best assumption we could make is that yes, the school would be worse without it.

so let me summarise that as the straight response you are seeking: I, and many other including a lot of non-believers, believe that might be a price worth paying.

I am not being glib about that. It has dangers and I am well aware of that. Nor am I saying 'indoctrination' is acceptable in general. We are well aware of how that has been used over the 20th century to enable no end of horrors. But 'indoctrination' is a loaded word and should not really be used for just for teaching people ideas you personally disagree with or you eventually find yourself in company with pete's claims that people are indoctrinated with a belief in evolutionism (I know, I know)...)


As to the validity of the evidence on over-subscription, I find it a bit astonishing that you think the majority of non-religious parents are prepared to pick schools they know are damaging for their children just so they can name-drop the school at the local golf club. Yes, such people exist, but my anecdotal evidence is that many more non-religious people put themselves through years of attending a church they don't believe in and what-not precisely because they believe it is best for the child.


"And I think the schools on the whole work better than the secular alternative, and that's essentially thanks to the religious ethos."

Evidence?

Well, let's adopt the scientific approach we both love, and reject all the subjective anecdotes we would not accept in science. We have evidence of popularity in terms of over-subscriptions. We have an informal view, which could be statistically verified if need be, that there are correlations between being popular and being a faith school. We have outcomes in the forms of league tables and academic results that could also be statistically correlated. (This last one, by the way, I have no idea whether there is a positive, negative, or zero correlation, but it could be done.)

So we have all the raw data for the calculations and it is am informal perception of all that that makes these people believe one school is better than another. If could all be formalised, but I don't think anyone has done so.

All that is objective (or in the case of Ofsted reports at least formal) Against that we have honestly made but subjective anecdotes. Wearing your scientist's hat, Steve, which would you go for?

By the way, I come to BS Mudcat to vent my spleen. exercise my poor brain and try to state my opinions as articulately and in as unprejudiced a manner as I can muster. I never expect to change anyone's opinions.

I agree (except for the spleen bit) I don't expect to change your opinion, nor pete's, nor Joe's, nor McGrath's nor anyone else on this thread. I have no interest in doing so. What I get out of this is a better understanding of other people's views, which I believe enhances my own understanding in general.