Dave, I do think you have raised a very interesting point. a discussion of thee issue you raised could take us away from that tedious and fruitless discussion of various views of history and get people on to a good debate on what the concept of the roll of the nation is. We seem, on some of these threads to get bogged down on historical interpretation. I was not meaning to dismiss or put aside your question. I just found it an interesting question about which we might have a really good question. I did not mean it to be an argy Barry response. It seems to me to cut to the heart of things and I feel it would make for a fruitful discussion. A whole different thread perhaps!!