It is not what you thought of the circumstances of one particular visit to the Cellar Upstairs that is important, it is that you have seen fit to decry a very worthwhile club in such a gross, unfair and public way.

The club was not in your opinion well-attended. What were the reasons for this? The club has been forced to move because of pub closure in an area of re-development. The organiser searched every pub, club and venue in the area and even now has been been forced to spread her club meetings between two venues, a far from ideal solution. My heart goes out to her. Many a less tenacious person would have given up. Club organisers who had a change of venue forced on them will know that every move takes you back to square one and you have to patiently build up your audience again. Any concerned, sympathetic person would want to encourage her for her efforts, but no, Jim Carroll says it was half-empty and asks if we think if he is telling a lie about this.

As well as losing audience when a move takes place, a club is likely to lose some of its supporting floor performers. Again an understanding person would realise this and know why the organiser might have to call on a singer who wanted to rely on written words. If Jim had made a general point about singers with crib sheets, he would have found widespread support on Mudcat, Certainly he would have me fulminating against the practice, but no, Jim decided to relate it to one particular incident in the Cellar Upstairs club.... and why was this club in particular mentioned by Jim? Read back and you will find that was because of the need he feels for incessant bickering and point-scoring between himself and Dick Miles.

Thirdly there is the matter of the intrusive recorded music. I have nothing to add to what Brian Peters has said on this point except that Jim claims to have know that organiser well. Could he let us know if he thinks that she is the sort of person who is likely to put up with this situation week after week with doing something about it? Would Jim like to suggest a positive way of helping her on this one rather than carping?

Finally, and this is my final statement in this thread, could I ask people - the next time they have a drink in their hands - to drink a toast to Sheila Miller and her ilk? Long may they continue their thankless, unpaid task of bringing the best performers that they can afford to their audiences. May they be protected from the moaning Minnies of this world!