Mr. Shaw sez: No use clinging on to the four gospels as definitive. They must have told you in your theology classes that those four were promoted only by decree, in a rather arbitrary manner, and that others were either suppressed or destroyed

Well, no, Steve, they didn't tell me in the seminary that the four Gospels were "promoted only by decree." As I said, I was taught that they came to the forefront by about 150 AD, and were decreed to be part of the canon in the 4th century. I know of no other first-century gospels, and I know of no decree earlier than the 4th century.

And if I say the Gospels were written between 55-105 AD, am I incorrect? Yes, some scholars say that all three Synoptics were written after about 75 AD, five years after the fall of Jerusalem. And some say Mark or an Aramaic Matthew came as early as 55. But my point was that the four Gospels were written in the first century, mostly from second-hand witnesses; and other known gospels came from the second century. Do you have documentation of other first-century gospels, or of orders for their destruction? And what other gospels would you consider to be definitive, and why? Have you read any of them? I've read several non-canonical gospels myself, and I found them interesting.

Ah, yes, And Irenaeus, your patron saint. In his quest against gnosticism, he almost single-handedly invented the pernicious art of argumentum ad absurdum that appears so often in your posts. He redefined gnosticism to the point where it was ridiculous, and then he proceeded to refute what he had redefined. Sound familiar, Steve?

And Jim Carroll, you still have nothing specific I can reply to. I visited a good number of convents and churches on my two visits to Ireland. Some were oppressive and severe, as you describe; and some were open, generous, aand friendly. The latter had people who enjoyed intellectual conversation. I had an especially good time at the original convent of the Sisters of Mercy on Baggot Street in Dublin. I had dinner there with the heads of the Sisters of Mercy in the US and the UK. Both were delightful, interesting, intelligent people. I went to Pentecost Sunday Mass at the cathedral in Galway, and it was sad and severe. So, I saw both.

And Dave the Gnome still thinks I haven't been scolding bad Christians enough. I haven't found scolding to be particularly effective in dealing with self-righteous nasty people, Dave. Why don't you do it? Or are you saying that those people are my responsibility, since both they and I call ourselves Christian? But Dave, I don't have any more in common with them, than you do. So, you go ahead and tell those nasty people to be good, and see if they listen to you.

-Joe Offer-