Ake - how can you know who is a 'serious socialist'? This is an internet forum and despite having been here for around 16 years I can't say I know anyone at all, expect those I meet personally.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, unless it's invalidating everyone else's opinion because they don't meet some arbitrary personal criteria of yours that means their views are uniformed or less relevant than those of the chosen few. Hardly the grounds for reasonable debate, especially when the Brexiteers are accusing others of doing precisely that.