The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #161737   Message #3846890
Posted By: Teribus
27-Mar-17 - 06:28 AM
Thread Name: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
Subject: RE: BS: Martin McGuinness (1950-2017) (Sinn Fein)
"It took five years of bloody guerrilla warfare to bring about independence for twenty six counties, and the peace that was forced on to Ireland in 1922 brought about another year of equally bloody civil war." - Jim Carroll

Identify the period of this epic struggle Jim.

If, as I think it is, you are referring to the period 1916 to 1921 then there was NO five years of bloody guerrilla warfare. You had not quite one week of complete and utter futile lunacy instigated in secret by just seven men in April 1916 that resulted in the destruction of the centre of Dublin followed by three and a quarter years of no fighting at all followed by two and a half years of minor sporadic skirmishing in what is known as the Irish war of independence during which time Ireland was given home rule which the nationalists rejected and the unionists in the north accepted.

This "bloody struggle" as you call it involved less than 0.65% of the population which had attached the following "butcher's bill":

Irish Republican Army ~550 dead

Royal Irish Constabulary 410 dead
British Army 261 dead
Ulster Special Constabulary 43 USC

In addition to the above ~750 civilians died in this two and a half year period, giving a total of ~2014 people killed - the population of Ireland at the time was just over 3 million people. So not really much of a bloody guerrilla war as delusional Jim would have us all believe.

The funny thing is that Jim insists that although the IRA "won" their war of independence a peace treaty was forced upon them, which is of course bullshit. But Jim has previously also insisted that he knows more about what happened in the negotiations than those who actually did take part in them - more delusion in the mind of Jim Carroll - I on the other hand tend to believe the men who were present.

The "men of the gun" (Good old Dev among them) then decided to fight a civil war in the newly created Irish Free State. Irish Republican forces fought against the Irish Nationalist forces who supported the Irish Free State and the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.

This conflict lasted just under 11 months but was much bloodier than the two and a half year war of independence and involved far larger numbers that represented about 3% of the population.

Republican forces numbered ~15,000
Nationalist forces numbered ~58,500

For the 10 months, 3 weeks and 5 days that this idiotic, futile and pointless exercise lasted, precise figures for the dead and wounded have still in 2017 to be fully determined and calculated. The pro-treaty "Nationalist" forces appear to have suffered somewhere between 540–800 fatalities, while the anti-treaty "Republican" forces appear to have received considerably heavier losses. For total combatant and civilian deaths, a minimum of 1,000 and a maximum of 4,000 have been suggested. All done for absolutely NOTHING apart from the wilful destruction by "Republican" forces towards the end of the conflict of Irish Government administrative buildings, commercial properties and vital transport infrastructure. The costs of this idiocy instigated by the "men of the gun" so admired by Jim Carroll amounted to some £50 million pounds that crippled the finances and economy of the fledgling Government of the newly independent Irish Free State with huge debt and resulted in a budget deficit of over £4 million in 1923.

Plain objective truth with regard to your "men of the gun" Carroll is as follows:

1: They fucked up in 1914
2: They fucked up in 1916
3: They fucked up in 1919
4: They fucked up in 1922
5: Had they done nothing at all Ireland would have been an independent united country in 1931.
6: They fucked up in 1939/40
7: They fucked up in 1956
8: They fucked up in 1969
9: Some elements are still determined, against the will and the declared wishes of the people in Ireland, to fuck up yet again claiming the same non-existent mandate claimed previously by the "secret seven" in 1916.