McGrath,

We all have beliefs that others on mudcat find reprehensible. Abortion comes to mind as probably the "hot" topic. I suspect that most decent people (and even some of us cynics) would find Mav's apparent assumptions deeply disturbing. His ideas about the segregation kids strikes me as crypto-fascistic. I don't know if that's what he is because he may be coming at it from another perspective.

As has been often quoted on mudcat and elsewhere, why attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.

I share your disgust with a lot of his solutions. I don't wish he and his ideas would go away. They won't. Ignoring the extremist of any type is dangerous. The thing I'm afraid of, having seen it happen, is an extension of what you propose. Ignore them, they'll go away. Been there, done that. Spent five years moving our school board back to the center because all of us figured those RR nuts would go away.

Is ostracism of the uncomfortable, the wrong, however you classify it, the way to go? Do we really gain anything but complacency? I fight the battle where I can, when I can. Letting the enemy retreat may be good tactics. It strikes me as poor strategy.

My take anyway.

Mav, Suv, Sticklea and others

One of my core values is that people deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. ( I would probably make an exception for the true sociopath or psychopath as they lack totally certain parts of what makes people people.) This is one of my back against the wall issues, btw. They deserve to be treated fairly, as equally as possible and with dignity. You don't have to like, love or even want to be around them. You can think their ideas are foolish, shortsighted or plain stupid. You don't have to suffer fools lightly, roll over an play dead to avoid offending someone or become a hermit.

You may believe in the same thing, but what you have said indicates that learning/education is a higher order value for you. Dividing people institutionally, making it a value of society, is a denial of their humanity. (That isn't to say there aren't groups I choose not to associate with. A matter of personal preference, not a judgement of their value).

The thrust of your solutions seem to run counter to this idea. Or you may not see what looks like thinly disguised bigotry as such. The "separate but equal" argument doesn't work in society, practically, logically or ethically. (It can work in one on one relationships). Everyone ranks and rates people based on a lot of different values. When innate respect for our fellow man isn't a core value (both personal and cultural) , when we start to classify people as different in the sense of different being a bad thing, and want to institutionalize that, make it a cultural value, we destroy something valuable in ourselves, let alone others.

Yes, we can list the problems in education, agree that this, that or the other is bad or needs to be fixed. The implications are frightening. Under your proposal, how do I teach my son to respect other people if I segregate certain groups based on a fairly sophisticated theoretical frame work. How do I answer the question "Well you get to go this private school, but your brother can't because he's ADS, in a wheelchair or whatever." If I tried, how do I look myself in the mirror the next day? What value do I teach my son. If he had a handicap, how do I instill self-respect when he's separated from his fellow human beings.

And what happens when kids grow up. Does the societal separation continue? Do we end up with a caste system. I'd find that a bad thing.

I've tried (and occasionally failed) to respond only to the ideas you put out. Whether I like them, find them comfortable or right or extreme, you share them with a lot of people. That seems to upset a lot of people.

Regards,

John