Hi,

Here's more on 8A. "Oh No, John," "No Sir," "Spanish Merchant's Daughter," "She answered No" songs. Below are several excerpts and one conclusion. The "Spanish Merchant's Daughter" by the Stonemans is a variant of No Sir.

Here's a general conclusion: The inevitable blending of "Madam, I Am Come to Court You" and "Spanish Lady" variants with the "she answered No" songs has caused confusion and made classification difficult. Since the choruses have been somewhat interchangeable it should be noted that the texts of both "Oh No John" and "No Sir" have certain characteristics and are represented by stanzas usually unique to each. They share in common the Spanish merchant stanza and have blended in later versions.

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Here are four basic types of chorus in US:

1. The "No Sir" type: No sir! No sir! No sir! No-- sir!
No sir! No sir! No sir! No.
2) The "Oh No John" type: Oh, no, John, no, John, no, John, no.
3) The "Spanish Lady" type: Rattle O ding, ding dom, ding dom,
Rattle O ding, dom da.
4) The "her answers were no" type: Uh-uh, no, no sir no,
All of her answers to me were no.

The last Type (her answers were No) usually has "No Sir" in the opening and is often titled "No Sir." The first type is from the Wakefield print version of 1881 which was widely printed and well known both here and abroad. The third type sung to a West Virginia version (see: Cox, 1916) with Spanish Lady replacing "lovely creature" is similarly found in Gypsy Davy. The Spanish Lady versions that are not closely related to Madam sometimes have a "No Sir" chorus (see Bell Roberston's version above). In this rare US version of Spanish Lady (No Sir) by Andrew Hawes at Pittsburg, NH in 1943 he sang the type 4 chorus "her answer it was No";

As I rode out to McCloud city
At twelve o'clock the other night
Twas there I spied a Spanish lady
Washing her scarves in pale moonlight.
CHORUS: She said No, no sir no
Still her answer it was No.

The first type may be used to identify the Wakefield print versions. Since the Wakefield version is from American tradition it makes categorization difficult since Wakefield's version entered tradition and her text also appears with type 4 chorus.

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The "No Sir" songs were English then American-- see also the version from Tristan de Cuna, originally a British colony[]. "No Sir" has a wider degree of variety and is closer to the "she answered No" songs. There's is occasional borrowing from "Oh No John" (see Copper version) but in general is associated with the two garden stanzas found similarly in the print version:

3. If I was walking in the garden,
Plucking flow'rs all wet with dew,
Tell me will you be offended,
If I walk and talk with you?
CHORUS

4. If when walking in the garden,
I should ask you to be mine,
and should tell you that I loved you,
would you then my heart decline?

There are also two basic types of versions of "No Sir." Type A is the popular print version, "No Sir," which was arranged from an American governess by Mary Wakefield and published in 1881, entered tradition and has been collected both here and abroad. Type B are the traditional versions from whence Type A was born. Examples of this older tradition can be seen above in both the Bell Robertson version and the MS version collected by Sharp in Kentucky in 1917. The conclusion is "No Sir" usually has these characteristics:

1. has the two "garden" stanzas
2. has a wider variety of chorus variations and is sometimes mixed with "she answered No" choruses.
3. has the "tell me truly/why you scorn me" stanza usually before the Spanish captain stanza.
4. has the Spanish merchant/Captain stanza in common with Oh No John.
5. has "chickens crowed for day" or "We lay there till the cocks did crow" ending stanza found in the US and UK.

Some rare versions of "Madam" use the "No Sir" or "she answered No" choruses.

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"Oh No John" is English and has two specific types. The best known, Type A, is the composite by Sharp. The other variants are Type B, made up of the traditional versions. Both types sometimes use the opening first and possibly second stanzas of Madam. Type B has variants of these three stanzas as found in Woolsey's original text:

On her bosom were bunches of posies,
On her breast where flowers grow,
If I've a chance to touch that posy
She must answer Yes or No.
O No John! No John! No John! No!

"Madam, shall I tie your garter?
Tie it a little above your knee,
If my hand should slip a little farther
Would you think it amiss of me?"
O No John! No John! No John! No!

One night they went to bed we together
There they lay till cocks did crow
Then they sport till the daylight was breaking
Now it's time for us to go.
O No John! No John! No John! No!

Clearly The White and Hopper version is "Oh No John" with a "No sir" Chorus. Stanza 2 of the White version is another bawdy type stanza that belongs to the "Oh No John" ur-ballad[]. The conclusion is "Oh No John" usually has these characteristics:

1. evolved from a bawdy English "she answered No" song.
2. used the opening stanza or stanzas from "Madam, I Have Come to Court You." Does not have the "Madam I have gold and Silver" stanzas or other stanzas of "Madam."
3. was sanitized by Sharp to become the popular "Oh No John" type A.
4. was not widely known outside of England and was not brought to America.
5. does not usually have the "garden" stanzas found in print and traditional versions of No Sir.
6. has the Spanish merchant/sailor/Captain stanza which also is found in No Sir.

Oh No John was not widely known and few traditional versions were collected. Cecil Sharp collected four but the total of original traditional versions is less than a dozen with most just fragments.

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Richie