Even for you, that was a particularly unfocused post, Teribus. Sounds like an EU army would be a good idea then, what with its forcing those lazy big countries to live up to their NATO obligations. The very idea seemed to be the spawn of the devil last time you were ranting against its being forced on us. Make your mind up.

Lombardy and Veneto are not seeking independence but they are demanding greater fiscal autonomy from a ramshackle and inefficient central government, so comparison with Catalonia is slightly invidious. I know both those Italian regions and a statement such as "the natives are getting restless" is staggeringly ignorant, demeaning and inappropriate when levelled at the people of Lombardy and Veneto, who could teach the originator of the term in this thread a lot about civility, good manners and appropriate use of language.

Incidentally, the ECJ (that much-maligned EU institution) has adjudicated that the right to self-determination as enshrined in the UN constitution can't be overridden by the EU. The problem for Catalonia going solo is that it would be immediately pitched out of the EU and would find it next to impossible to rejoin. The EU doesn't like fragmentation (just as Westminster didn't want the fragmentation of the Union, so any bleating on that score would represent a double standard) and would rail against it, and Spain certainly wouldn't approve. New members can be admitted only via a unanimous vote of all member states. If that were put starkly and honestly to the people of Catalonia in a referendum they would not vote for independence. It sounds like blackmail, but rules is rules. After brexit, the EU would be far more sympathetic to an independent Scotland, if that ever happened, as Scotland would have been dragged out of the EU against its will, unlike an independent Catalonia, which would be seen as having brought the problem on itself. The EU has been of major benefit to the regions of Spain and you don't get to leave without paying a high price. That isn't my stance. That's just how it is.